[delenda est Sony]

Hi Immersion---

as Gluegun says, closed phones have a certain disadvantage versus open models. The Grados (and 497s) have a deeper soundstage than the 280s. However, given the totality of your needs (dorms), you will still probably be better off with the 280s. You are lucky inasmuch that the 280s are among the best of closed designs, so they do not sound much less musical than the SR60 or 497. but there is a difference.

Per BLR's review, the 280s can match or even exceed the Beyer 250s. The 250s are also closed cans though, so we are again considering apples and oranges.

Hope this clarifies...

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by delenda est Sony Per BLR's review, the 280s can match or even exceed the Beyer 250s. The 250s are also closed cans though, so we are again considering apples and oranges.

I know I've brought this up before

but remember that blr's review is one review, and right now the only review comparing the DT250-80 to the HD280. I'm just a bit skeptical of making generalizations about these two headphones until more people have been able to hear both. Just a word of caution, that's all...

 

[ImMersion]

Quote:

Originally posted by delenda est Sony Hi Immersion--- as Gluegun says, closed phones have a certain disadvantage versus open models. The Grados (and 497s) have a deeper soundstage than the 280s.

What does "a deeper soundstage" mean really.(curious) Do they immerse

you in sound, like at a movie where the sound comes from all sides, or does this mean that it can hit lower lowes and higher highs than closed phones.

 

[Autumnal]

ImMersion:

Translating our individual and collective aural experience with headphones into written language is part of the challenge, the fun, and the difficulty of this forum.

In three-dimensional terms, "soundstage" is about space. The music is presented from within an overall (imaginary) space, with different sounds or instruments located in different parts of that space. Soundstage refers to our experience of the size of the overall musical space.

In somewhat simpler two-dimensional terms, we're talking about area---breadth and depth---how wide or deep is the (imaginary) area from which the sound seems to emanate?

A limited, narrow, or compressed soundstage makes the music "feel" like it was created in a closet. Admittedly, some music IS essentially created in a closet---electronic or sequenced music, for example, can come from a single point source of a computer/synthesizer. That's not, however, how human brains enjoy listening to music (or any sounds, for that matter). Listening to an 80-piece symphony orchestra that seems like it was crammed into a closet is less than wonderful.

At the opposite extreme, a Grand-Canyon-sized soundstage is equally unenjoyable. The music is overwhelmed by the space, losing immediacy, definition, and presence as it echoes in the distance. We don't want a singer to seem two miles away.

So, one of the many paradoxes in designing great headphones (or any audio component, actually, but especially headphones) involves the trick of pulling off this contradictory illusion---that of a wide, deep, or expanded soundstage within which the music still has immediacy and presence. Mastering that trick results in Very Big Intimacy---the music is nuanced and detailed, but broad and spacious at the same time.

Hope this helps.

--Bill

 

[ImMersion]

Quote:

Originally posted by Autumnal ImMersion: Translating our individual and collective aural experience with headphones into written language is part of the challenge, the fun, and the difficulty of this forum.... ... deep, or expanded soundstage within which the music still has immediacy and presence. Mastering that trick results in Very Big Intimacy---the music is nuanced and detailed, but broad and spacious at the same time. Hope this helps. --Bill

Sweet. Yeah bill that was exaclty what i wanted to know.


Follow up. Now I am choosing between the 212pro or the 280 pro. There is about a $30 difference and Ill need to buy a pcdp soon. I am not an audiophile but do like good sounding phones, so should I skimp this time and save some money for great cans later on?

Is there that much of a difference between the 212(it is said to be a closed ver. of 497) and the 280pro?

 

[Taphil]

I'm no audiophile either. But I did buy the 497 then got the 280 2 weeks later. Now it's hard to go back to using the 497, although they were quite good. I really like the 280. And I got them mainly because I didn't want to disturb my roommate since the 497s leak sound a lot. (And also to block him and his cell phone out also).

 

[ImMersion]

Quote:

Originally posted by Taphil I'm no audiophile either. But I did buy the 497 then got the 280 2 weeks later. Now it's hard to go back to using the 497, although they were quite good. I really like the 280. And I got them mainly because I didn't want to disturb my roommate since the 497s leak sound a lot. (And also to block him and his cell phone out also).

Have you heard the 212 tho? they are also closed and I want to know if they are similar or totally different. Thanks

 

[delenda est Sony]

Autumnal---

beautiful explanation of soundstage!

You are the poet laureate of Head-fi; keep up the fine prose...

 

[Atomicarnage]

Judging by the design of the phones, the 280's look to be much better as far as isolation, durability, portability, and comfort are concerned, mainly because they fold up, and surround your ears entirely. For the price, the 280's are excellent phones, which I prefer for use inside my dorm because of their better isolation and detail compared to my sr-60's. For the study room forget the grado's they are WAY too open, but the 280's, ahhh they are to say the least - perfect. (I like thier bass better too)

 

[ImMersion]

Quote:

Originally posted by Atomicarnage Judging by the design of the phones, the 280's look to be much better as far as isolation, durability, portability, and comfort are concerned, mainly because they fold up, and surround your ears entirely. For the price, the 280's are excellent phones, which I prefer for use inside my dorm because of their better isolation and detail compared to my sr-60's. For the study room forget the grado's they are WAY too open, but the 280's, ahhh they are to say the least - perfect. (I like thier bass better too)

Thats what I figured so I ordered them last night from buy.com for 91 shipped. I let u guys know how it works out. Thanks for all the help.

 

[srapps55]

Originally posted by jpelg
OPEN Headphones - Your best sound

I can't stand the Sennheiser 497. VERY cheap construction, questionable comfort. For these reasons, and the fact that the sound is not all that awesome (at least unamped) I cannot recommend them. The above two choices are far better for less $$.

----------------------------------------

Are you smoking crack??? There is no way that the sound of the Koss headphones is better than the HD497. THUD, THUD, THUD, THUD, THUD. That's all Koss provides, and it isn't worth spending money on. Can't speak for the Grados, but the Senn 497 are in a totally different class from the Koss.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by srapps55 Are you smoking crack??? There is no way that the sound of the Koss headphones is better than the HD497. THUD, THUD, THUD, THUD, THUD. That's all Koss provides, and it isn't worth spending money on. Can't speak for the Grados, but the Senn 497 are in a totally different class from the Koss.

First of all, relax -- there's no need to disparage differences in opinion.

Second, having at one time owned the HD497 and every one of the Koss KSC/porta line (KSC-35, KSC-50, KSC-55, SportaPro, PortaPro), I disagree with you -- IMO they aren't in a totally different class. The HD497 have a "fuller" sound, but they don't clearly beat the KSC-35, for example. I can see someone preferring one or the other in many areas. And your description of the Koss line ("THUD, THUD, THUD, etc.") may slightly apply to the Sportas, but definitely not to the rest of the model line.

 

[Commander]

I agree - I have some Koss Porta Pros and I think they are amazing, easily beating cans costing 3 times the price!

 

[srapps55]

Quote:

Originally posted by MacDEF First of all, relax -- there's no need to disparage differences in opinion. Second, having at one time owned the HD497 and every one of the Koss KSC/porta line (KSC-35, KSC-50, KSC-55, SportaPro, PortaPro), I disagree with you -- IMO they aren't in a totally different class. The HD497 have a "fuller" sound, but they don't clearly beat the KSC-35, for example. I can see someone preferring one or the other in many areas. And your description of the Koss line ("THUD, THUD, THUD, etc.") may slightly apply to the Sportas, but definitely not to the rest of the model line.

You can disagree with me, but I stand by my original comment. Every Koss phone I have listened to in that price range is unlistenable to my ears. I want to be able to hear ALL of the instruments, not just the drums and bass. If I was 18 and listened to heavy metal or some other "music" genre, the Koss might be fine, otherwise, I'll stick with the Senns.

 

[Commander]

Each to his own - I am 45 not 18 and listen to everything from Duke Ellington to System of a Down to Norah Jones through to Prokofiev, Vaughan Williams and Bax, and I still reckon the Porta Pros handle everything beautifully! Not quite as good as the Sennheiser but not that far off either! As a musician I like to hear my music sounding the way I produced it in the studio, and many headphones just don't sound right. The Porta Pros kind of do . . .