[jaqueh]

 
Quote:

Ego plays a serious role around this debate.  You think it, therefore you are correct and everyone else is wrong.  Take Liams replies for example, he will see what ever he wants to see and read what ever he wants to read, no matter how hard you mash it right into his face or how gentle your counter point is, you will always get someone with a subjective view telling others their views are subjective or overly assertive.  It's a "god complex".  He is an audio remastering engineer, therefore he must be correct and his ears must be truly golden.  In the nicest way possible, I respect all opinions and absolutely love reading everyones impressions on all subjects and I apologize if my reply seemed a bit harsh, that was not my intent.  As I read back on it, it was clearly a retaliation in an egotistical manner and that is unlike me in ever facet.  I apologize for that tone.  
 
Tyll and I agree completely, the changes were small yet audible.  I've said nothing to the contrary.  I've said this many times before, there are many factors to add into the burn in equation like Weather and Temperature: Cold weather will absolutely make the innards of all electronics tense.  Headphones that have been shipped on the back of a Fedex truck in the blistering cold will sound harsh and absolutely ugly right out of the box just like my HE500s were today.  Out of the box this morning I wanted to vomit.  Right next to my HE300, the HE500 sounded butt ugly and something I will never use.  However, hours later as it settled into room temperature without any use beyond the first 5 minutes of opening the package and playing some tunes, they sound immensely smooth and tonally...let me rephrase...exceptionally beautiful in every way.  Electronics do transmit electricity more efficiently over time, wiring wears out, batteries fail ect ect.  In the case of audio drivers, the immensely tiny changes equate to audible differences.  And there are many areas of sonic qualities that burn in effects
 
-Bass type, including texture and weight, thick or thin watery bass, how muddy and how broad, warmth or more neutral or cold?
-Soundstage size, how deep, how tall or wide, does it envelope, how spacious
-Separation qualities
-Tinny highs, how bright, how dull, how much snap, are they harsh or relaxed
 
So many of these factors are not testable right now and what ever physical changes occur inside the innards of audio gear will produce some audible changes in these areas.  Dismissing the possibility without proof right now is poor science to me and something I just cannot do.  I don't need to believe in it, I can hear it.  I've heard it repeatedly for years and on almost every set of headphones I've ever owned.  I need no real proof right now, I trust my own ears.   

this I completely agree with. there is so much more to good audio than frequency curves. I think that the closest measurement of good audio is a square wave test but you need to have pretty good equipment for an amateur to do that
 
 

 

[AstralStorm]

From personal experience with IEMs:
- Drivers don't burn in. Balanced armature, dynamic, whatever the driver, it won't change at all. Measured it myself as an experiment some time ago, continuous measurement over 120h to avoid refit issues. Fun thing, do that yourself some day.
- Tips do model to ear, some more than others. I found tips modeling to ear canal in the following order of effect magnitude: olives, soft silicone "mushroom", Comply foam. Typical silicone tips do also slightly improve their fit, but it's nowhere near the rest. Most foam tips become softer with time too, sometimes too soft even. (especially trimmed Comply, lasts about 2 months before starting to lose fit)
The difference is pretty substantial in some cases. I've compared older VSonic silicone tips with the new lightly used ones. The old ones lost certain annoying resonances.
- Reproducible fit is pretty hard, the differences even with best fit can be easily audible, 1 dB or so, which is critical in higher mids/lower highs, affecting soundstaging a lot.
 
From personal experience with headphones, same as above; but there are more parts that change with use, such as headband - and those parts tend to affect various resonances far more than in IEMs. Found it especially relevant for higher frequencies and in headphones that use metal parts.
 
The one thing that I don't know whether it is affected by "burn-in" would be foam/paper filters in some IEMs. The characteristics of such parts can change with the amount of moisture or with heat...

 

[tinyman392]

Quote:

From personal experience with IEMs:
- Drivers don't burn in. Balanced armature, dynamic, whatever the driver, it won't change at all. Measured it myself as an experiment some time ago, continuous measurement over 120h to avoid refit issues. Fun thing, do that yourself some day.
- Tips do model to ear, some more than others. I found tips modeling to ear canal in the following order of effect magnitude: olives, soft silicone "mushroom", Comply foam. Typical silicone tips do also slightly improve their fit, but it's nowhere near the rest. Most foam tips become softer with time too, sometimes too soft even. (especially trimmed Comply, lasts about 2 months before starting to lose fit)
The difference is pretty substantial in some cases. I've compared older VSonic silicone tips with the new lightly used ones. The old ones lost certain annoying resonances.
- Reproducible fit is pretty hard, the differences even with best fit can be easily audible, 1 dB or so, which is critical in higher mids/lower highs, affecting soundstaging a lot.
 
From personal experience with headphones, same as above; but there are more parts that change with use, such as headband - and those parts tend to affect various resonances far more than in IEMs. Found it especially relevant for higher frequencies and in headphones that use metal parts.
 
The one thing that I don't know whether it is affected by "burn-in" would be foam/paper filters in some IEMs. The characteristics of such parts can change with the amount of moisture or with heat...

This completely contradicts my experiences with the ADDIEMs though.  I went to get them replaced (but kept my tips as I knew they were rare ).  When I got my new ones, I put on my old tips, the entire sound of the IEM sounded entirely different.  As time went on, they sounded more like typical ADDIEMs...  Again, I didn't change the tip, the only thing that changed was the ADDIEM itself (an old model for a brand new model). 
 
Is it possible to see the graphs that came out from these tests? Along with models of headphones used, and how you tested their frequency response, and how often you periodically collected ifnormation... 

 

[swbf2cheater]

^ I mentioned that one as well in a few topics about burn in.  The earpads have a ton to do with this as well.  Most leather pads start out pretty stiff, most of us clamp our new headphones on some books or a bust of some type which will without question make the earpads less fluffy.  The closer the driver to your ears, the bigger the change.  Pressing your headphones gently to your ears will result in a different sound.  This, the psychological aspects of your ears adjusting or becoming more aware of the soundscape and the easing of tension on the innards of the headphones combined result in a very different experience from the stock sound.
 
<3

 

[Jeremypsp]

I meant to say at first I don't believe in burn-in since none of my other headphones and in-ear earphones changed after burning-in. The turbines are the first one that I experienced a difference. So I don't know whether it's true or not...

 

[tinyman392]

Quote:

I meant to say at first I don't believe in burn-in since none of my other headphones and in-ear earphones changed after burning-in. The turbines are the first one that I experienced a difference. So I don't know whether it's true or not...

Well, it's just a little ironic to say that you hear a difference in your Turbines as thing change over time (burn/break-in), but then say you don't believe in it... 

 

[Jeremypsp]

Quote:

Well, it's just a little ironic to say that you hear a difference in your Turbines as thing change over time (burn/break-in), but then say you don't believe in it... 

Well, that was a little typo, I believe.
 

 

[tinyman392]

Quote:

Well, that was a little typo, I believe.
 

What was the typo?  Little confuzzled right now

 

[Jeremypsp]

Quote:

What was the typo?  Little confuzzled right now

I meant the part where I said I didn't believe in burn-in yet it worked for my Turbine is a slight typo.

 

[tinyman392]

Quote:

I meant the part where I said I didn't believe in burn-in yet it worked for my Turbine is a slight typo.

LOL, OK...  Sounded a little weird   We all do that sometimes

 

[Jeremypsp]

Quote:

LOL, OK...  Sounded a little weird   We all do that sometimes

^^

 

[Shike]

From what I've seen, the difference between two pairs of headphones stock is greater than the changes presented with "burn-in".  I find it hard to believe that everyone is claiming a certain model headphone - which will already measure slightly different from another of the same make and model - burns-in identically (yet somehow according to user experience this seems to almost always be the case).  Somehow, all of this burn-in is magically good and never once really negative.  Furthermore, no one seems to demo a headphone and after buying it comment on the difference in sound between the box unit and demo one (even though these usually have greater measurable differences again, COMBINED with the demo having been "burned-in").  I've had the chance of comparing headphones (particularly the K702 and Q701) blind, with multiple subjects, and one having heavy usage - my findings were pretty much a wash.  Not one out of five people could hear a difference, some had musical training and others did not.  This includes myself as a sixth.
 
At this point I don't know what to say except that I can't find sufficient proof or experience to really believe in it.  I'm much more inclined to believe in mental burn-in . . . that our brains will adjust and compensate more than anything else thus changing our opinion over time of the sound.  The only time I've actually seen MEASURABLE burn-in to a sufficiently audible degree is on subwoofers with hefty magnets and lots of usage.  Even then, after they sit for a day or so they return back to normal operating parameters.
 
There's too many stretches and leaps of logic for me to believe that headphones burn-in.  Even worse is when one says that every headphone burns-in.

 

[tinyman392]

Quote:

From what I've seen, the difference between two pairs of headphones stock is greater than the changes presented with "burn-in".  I find it hard to believe that everyone is claiming a certain model headphone - which will already measure slightly different from another of the same make and model - burns-in identically (yet somehow according to user experience this seems to almost always be the case).  Somehow, all of this burn-in is magically good and never once really negative.  Furthermore, no one seems to demo a headphone and after buying it comment on the difference in sound between the box unit and demo one (even though these usually have greater measurable differences again, COMBINED with the demo having been "burned-in").  I've had the chance of comparing headphones (particularly the K702 and Q701) blind, with multiple subjects, and one having heavy usage - my findings were pretty much a wash.  Not one out of five people could hear a difference, some had musical training and others did not.  This includes myself as a sixth.
 
At this point I don't know what to say except that I can't find sufficient proof or experience to really believe in it.  I'm much more inclined to believe in mental burn-in . . . that our brains will adjust and compensate more than anything else thus changing our opinion over time of the sound.  The only time I've actually seen MEASURABLE burn-in to a sufficiently audible degree is on subwoofers with hefty magnets and lots of usage.  Even then, after they sit for a day or so they return back to normal operating parameters.
 
There's too many stretches and leaps of logic for me to believe that headphones burn-in.  Even worse is when one says that every headphone burns-in.

IDK if this counts, but I've had a headphone stay bad with burn in (didn't start good, just continued being bad; PureSound) and one that went all over the place, from good to bad to good again...  Please define what "heavy usage" is since that term isn't defined... 
 
As for the mental burn in, I've stated it many times, it ignores the fact that people who do hear these differences hear it over the same timespan/rate.  If it was truly mental, we would all hear these break-ins differently across time (EG, I couldn't say that the Dunu Hephaes will become better after at least 175 hours but sound terrible after the first 50; which parallels the findings of another member on this forum).  Chances are that our brains aren't perfectly alike to create those type of results. Could it be part mental, possibly, but not entirely...
 
I still say it's related to our sensitivity to the process of decay (people who have faster decay periods will not hear burn in as much as people who are slow to do the decay process).  Decay process is the brains process to drown out a uniform sound (doesn't need to be a tone, or sets of sounds that are close to each other).  This is also probably related to a persons sensitivity to a change in sound over time (change in the change in sound or ds^2/(d^2*t)).
 

 

[Jeremypsp]

Could really be mental too. My Klipsch S4s I thought sounds awesome a few months ago, but just recently, I found them to have too much bass and a little unbearable. So the break-in process might occur if you eventually find fault with them after listening to them, or find their positive points after listening to them for some time.

 

[tinyman392]

Quote:

Could really be mental too. My Klipsch S4s I thought sounds awesome a few months ago, but just recently, I found them to have too much bass and a little unbearable. So the break-in process might occur if you eventually find fault with them after listening to them, or find their positive points after listening to them for some time.

Have you switched headphones between then?  If so, that will affect results Gong from something like Etymotics to something like Dunu Hephaes will result in the Hephaes sounding muddy and bloating...  However, after a few minutes, the muddyness will become textured and the bloatedness gone (since your ears have time to adjust to a new sound).