[tinyman392]

Quote:

Can't we all just get along =D

LOL, we aren't yelling at each other anymore, so technically we are getting along. 

 

[Liplip]

I'm quite sure there's a difference in sound quality after burn-in. But it wasn't too great of a deal as what most had said.  

 

[fubar3]

The humar ear produces distortion which varies with sound pressure... so says this guy -> http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Nonlinear.htm
I am thinking that each person hears sound in a unique way so how is it possible to agree about the experience of certain music on certain headphones?

 

[tinyman392]

Quote:

The humar ear produces distortion which varies with sound pressure... so says this guy -> http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Nonlinear.htm
I am thinking that each person hears sound in a unique way so how is it possible to agree about the experience of certain music on certain headphones?

I'll take that fact that there is distortion.  Now, what we are hearing are differences.  Note how we saying something becomes more or less of something.  Since perception of a gained sound will remain regardless of this distortion, the difference is still the same (perceived sound after - perceived sound before) since we aren't measuring the sound itself, but the difference of the sounds.  This is why these differences can still be heard regardless of how loud we listen to something since it's the difference. 
 
Remember, the human hearing isn't linear either, WikiPedia really outlines it well as well in this graph:

​

 ​

Although this is only the averages, a 5 dB bump in one area of sound for one person will be a bump for the next person (it may not be exactly 5dB, but it'll be close).  This is what we are actually measuring (an arbitrary change).  We aren't measuring I heard bass at 50dB while the mids were at 70dB and the highs at about 60dB.  No, we say there is a slight bump in the lows but a loss of mids.  Human perception will be able to catch these gains and losses as long as they are sensitive enough to these changes.  We don't put a number on things because we really can't (as humans anyway, machines can though). 
 
I think I worded that weirdly, so let me give you an example.  If we do an EQ of the mids for 5dB up, the perceived amount will not be 5dB for everyone (when in actuality it is), but we all will hear an increase (assuming your ears are sensitive enough to hear a 5dB upward change).  Due to this increase, we can say we heard this increase, and that most people should be able to hear this increase.  Now why would some people not hear a given bump (or loss).  Let's say it only increased 2dB (not everyone can hear this difference).  Although it did increase 2dB, not everyone will hear this, only some will. 

 

[Joe Bloggs]

But my reasoning was exactly time based--that hearing old and new on the two ears simultaneously would show the difference more than any time separated ABing would.

 

[tinyman392]

Quote:

But my reasoning was exactly time based--that hearing old and new on the two ears simultaneously would show the difference more than any time separated ABing would.

Not entirely since we don't know the actual differences between the drivers.  For all we know, the actual differences could be something like a 2-3dB boost in some area which is barely audible (but over a range more audible).  However, even when looking at Etymotic Quality checks, 2dB is an acceptable inbalance (which is barely noticeable, if at all noticeable).  That's another reason why it doesn't work as well as ABing them.  If you do what you did, the slight imbalance really isn't heard since the change is small, but it's small here, and here and here. 
 
What can end up happening with one IEM in one ear and another in another is that you'll hear the average of both IEMs, instead of the actual differences.  The only differences that will be heard (which is still extremely hard to hear knowing that the differences can be below 2-3 dB at times) would be a soundstage shift, but this shift would be really minor and barely noticeable (1cm shift if you're lucky).  On top of that, the shift would be spuratic.  The bass may shift slightly to the the left while the mids go up slightly while the treble moves slightly to the right.  Overall sound stage shift cancels out though.  This is normally how you can hear an imbalance which is audible, but then again, really small and unnoticable unless you really focus.  This effect of this shift can be replicated when one ear has one seal and the other has a slightly weaker seal.  The actual change in sound is unnoticable, but the soundstage actually takes a short shift either direction. 
 
AGain, my wording can at times be awkward, hopefully you get what I'm saying.  The overall sound won't change as much if you were to swap both buds out for new or old ones since your brain will somehow average both sounds out.  The only small change will be one of an imbalance in soundstage which can also be replicated with a slightly offbalance seal (I ran into these imbalances lots of times, but they don't affect the actual signature enough).

 

[swbf2cheater]

Personally, I think it has to do with EMF fields, sound wave frequency and general Electromagnetism.  My theory is as such:
 
Currently, all audio drivers that I am aware of are highly magnetized and produce some type of EMF fields around themselves, naturally.  As current runs over them over a duration of a short time ( burn in ) the field itself changes and becomes less magnetized.  Yes,  I said less.  I say that because high magnetic fields can distort the very air around you and will cause lop sided sound waves to be emitted from any source, your headphones, your speakers, your voice.  The very air that all sonic waves ride on is disrupted at first due to an overbearingly powerful EMF field that will deteriorate slightly over the course of usage.  The more you burn in it, the more the sonic wave frequency generated will become less distorted, more spacious in wavelength and ends up improving sonic quality.  This is a direct result of small shifts of EMF fields over the course of the beginning of the life of your piece of audio gear. Drivers do not physically change, they are made of metal and will stay that way until something physically damages them.  The only moving parts that would reflect some type of sound quality alterations from stock would be the Diaphragm: It certainly can move more freely and get less tense over time.  It is possible this small physical change can equate to something audibly different after some use.  
 
The Earpads on larger headphones start out stiff, that is a simple fact.  As they press against your head they relieve their stress and become very tactile and loose over time, it is no different than pushing the headphones gently onto your ears, the drivers will get a smidgen closer over time and that is certainly audible.  Temperature also plays a role, I can tell you without a doubt that cold weather is sinister in nature when it comes to new headphones.  Riding on the back of a delivery truck in winter will cause them to sound terrible.  When I got my HE500 just last week, it was delivered in very cold weather, ice cold to the touch as soon as I opened it.  Plugged it in and holy crap it sounded super hazy.  I was dumbfounded and plugged my HE300 into the same source and found it to be significantly more clear.  After the HE500 got to room temperature a short time later, the sound quality did a 180 degree turn and turned into something sublime.
 
In the case of IEMs, tips play a serious role and so does the inside of your ear canal.  You stick something in it long enough and your ear will shape to it and become less constricting, thus allowing for a better insert without you even noticing.  Bottom line is that I have no doubt in my tiny human mind that Burn In results in more clarity over a short time.  I've never once noticed anything different beyond 50 or so hours of use.  I will bet my life my HE500 changed from day 1 and 2 to right now just a few days later.  I listen to my favorite songs ever single day, I know what they sound like through all my gear and I can recall my first impressions at day 2 of burn in being audibly hazier than it is now, saying to myself "this doesn't sound as clear or dynamic as I want it to be or as it should be" Today, I retract that and say something changed and it was very audible.
 
-Mike

 

[Jeremypsp]

Burn-in is one that is subjective. It isn't a theory that can make everyone believe in it. Some may have had experience that burning-in can improve sound quality, some have not. So as to whether burn-in works, it varies from people to people. 

 

[tinyman392]

Quote:

Personally, I think it has to do with EMF fields, sound wave frequency and general Electromagnetism.  My theory is as such:
 
Currently, all audio drivers that I am aware of are highly magnetized and produce some type of EMF fields around themselves, naturally.  As current runs over them over a duration of a short time ( burn in ) the field itself changes and becomes less magnetized.  Yes,  I said less.  I say that because high magnetic fields can distort the very air around you and will cause lop sided sound waves to be emitted from any source, your headphones, your speakers, your voice.  The very air that all sonic waves ride on is disrupted at first due to an overbearingly powerful EMF field that will deteriorate slightly over the course of usage.  The more you burn in it, the more the sonic wave frequency generated will become less distorted, more spacious in wavelength and ends up improving sonic quality.  This is a direct result of small shifts of EMF fields over the course of the beginning of the life of your piece of audio gear. Drivers do not physically change, they are made of metal and will stay that way until something physically damages them.  The only moving parts that would reflect some type of sound quality alterations from stock would be the Diaphragm: It certainly can move more freely and get less tense over time.  It is possible this small physical change can equate to something audibly different after some use.  
 
The Earpads on larger headphones start out stiff, that is a simple fact.  As they press against your head they relieve their stress and become very tactile and loose over time, it is no different than pushing the headphones gently onto your ears, the drivers will get a smidgen closer over time and that is certainly audible.  Temperature also plays a role, I can tell you without a doubt that cold weather is sinister in nature when it comes to new headphones.  Riding on the back of a delivery truck in winter will cause them to sound terrible.  When I got my HE500 just last week, it was delivered in very cold weather, ice cold to the touch as soon as I opened it.  Plugged it in and holy crap it sounded super hazy.  I was dumbfounded and plugged my HE300 into the same source and found it to be significantly more clear.  After the HE500 got to room temperature a short time later, the sound quality did a 180 degree turn and turned into something sublime.
 
In the case of IEMs, tips play a serious role and so does the inside of your ear canal.  You stick something in it long enough and your ear will shape to it and become less constricting, thus allowing for a better insert without you even noticing.  Bottom line is that I have no doubt in my tiny human mind that Burn In results in more clarity over a short time.  I've never once noticed anything different beyond 50 or so hours of use.  I will bet my life my HE500 changed from day 1 and 2 to right now just a few days later.  I listen to my favorite songs ever single day, I know what they sound like through all my gear and I can recall my first impressions at day 2 of burn in being audibly hazier than it is now, saying to myself "this doesn't sound as clear or dynamic as I want it to be or as it should be" Today, I retract that and say something changed and it was very audible.
 
-Mike

That's a good explanation that does make a lot of sense.  However, you are still missing one crucial thing, why do some people hear differences and some don't? 
 


Quote:

Burn-in is one that is subjective. It isn't a theory that can make everyone believe in it. Some may have had experience that burning-in can improve sound quality, some have not. So as to whether burn-in works, it varies from people to people. 

Now the thing is that there has to be an explanation on why it varies from people to people.  We want to get a good solid explanation for this (or even a set of explanation) to test in the future. 
Just with the mass amount of people hearing it, there is chance that burn in happens, then again, with the mass amount of people not hearing it, there is chance that it doesn't.  However, all FR graphs have pointed in the direction of burn in.  We just want to know one thing, why do people hear it, why don't others not hear it.  That answer isn't subjective (since it pertains to more than one person), but instead trying to get an objective truth (notice the lowercase t; this truth may not be proven yet, just accepted that it can be proven). 

 

[Jeremypsp]

Quote:

That's a good explanation that does make a lot of sense.  However, you are still missing one crucial thing, why do some people hear differences and some don't? 
 

Now the thing is that there has to be an explanation on why it varies from people to people.  We want to get a good solid explanation for this (or even a set of explanation) to test in the future. 
Just with the mass amount of people hearing it, there is chance that burn in happens, then again, with the mass amount of people not hearing it, there is chance that it doesn't.  However, all FR graphs have pointed in the direction of burn in.  We just want to know one thing, why do people hear it, why don't others not hear it.  That answer isn't subjective (since it pertains to more than one person), but instead trying to get an objective truth (notice the lowercase t; this truth may not be proven yet, just accepted that it can be proven). 

I guess so, but another thing is, not many people can tell the difference between different earphones. For example, not everyone(most people who do not care about sound quality these days) is able to tell the difference between a Westone 4 and an apple earbud for example. So if some people can't even tell such a big difference in the audiophile world, discerning such a small difference like burn-in may not be easy for most people. Also, many people tend to forget the sound before it's burned-in and after it's burned-in, since generally most people are happy with them out of the box. But people who find them horrible out of the box and then noticed the difference after burning-in can testify it the most. So it does vary from people to people to headphones to headphones.
 

 

[tinyman392]

Quote:

I guess so, but another thing is, not many people can tell the difference between different earphones. For example, not everyone(most people who do not care about sound quality these days) is able to tell the difference between a Westone 4 and an apple earbud for example. So if some people can't even tell such a big difference in the audiophile world, discerning such a small difference like burn-in may not be easy for most people. Also, many people tend to forget the sound before it's burned-in and after it's burned-in, since generally most people are happy with them out of the box. But people who find them horrible out of the box and then noticed the difference after burning-in can testify it the most. So it does vary from people to people to headphones to headphones.
 

OK...  Um, we are making the assumption that they can tell that difference since the signatures are greatly different.  WE are in the audiophile realm right now and assuming people who say they can hear it and can't hear it know what they are hearing (or not hearing).  Also note that the majority of people not hearing it are audiophiles (along with some non-audiophiles).  It's a mixed bag.  You can't just deny their observations like that (you're doing exactly what the people labeling "placebo" are doing). 
 
Now, memory can be an issue, however, long-term memory is mroe stable over time and harder to change compared to short term memory, so that memory should be pretty valid (it's hard to change a long-term memory although it can be done after it decays; decay can take a while though).  The main question is why does it vary from people to people and headphone to headphone?  Remember, you can't discern someone's observation just because it is against your ideas/opinions, you should take them for valid since they are both large in number and haven't been invalidated (you can't invalidate subjectivity without proving insanity; insanity is used as the legal term).

 

[keanex]

A lot of users claim burn-in isn't real, I was one of those until I experienced it myself. A lot of users also claim BA drivers don't experience burn-in, yet my JAYS q-JAYS were unbearable to listen to with the silicon tips and barely listenable with the Comply foams until after 50+ hours of use. The treble was just way too hot, it's still hot now but it's toned down very much.

 

[lee730]

Quote:

A lot of users claim burn-in isn't real, I was one of those until I experienced it myself. A lot of users also claim BA drivers don't experience burn-in, yet my JAYS q-JAYS were unbearable to listen to with the silicon tips and barely listenable with the Comply foams until after 50+ hours of use. The treble was just way too hot, it's still hot now but it's toned down very much.

Isn't it nice once you've opened your eyes to new possibilities and not so close-minded and closed off in your thinking. I was skeptical myself when first joining you headfiers on this journey. With my very first pair of hi-grade IEMs (IE8s) I discovered that burn in does exist. The changes were quite drastic at that to the point "where it would slap you in the face"; just incredibly obvious. Same thing happened with that very same type of IEM when I upgraded her to a pure silver cable. I wasn't expecting a miracle but there was major change yet again (the IE8s just don't become magically sibilant for 2 days of usage because I wanted to hear a difference, it was just clearly there after the cable upgrade).

 

[keanex]

Quote:

Isn't it nice once you've opened your eyes to new possibilities and not so close-minded and closed off in your thinking. I was skeptical myself when first joining you headfiers on this journey. With my very first pair of hi-grade IEMs (IE8s) I discovered that burn in does exist. The changes were quite drastic at that to the point "where it would slap you in the face"; just incredibly obvious. Same thing happened with that very same type of IEM when I upgraded her to a pure silver cable. I wasn't expecting a miracle but there was major change yet again (the IE8s just don't become magically sibilant for 2 days of usage because I wanted to hear a difference, it was just clearly there after the cable upgrade).

I was very skeptical, though with a lot of things here you have to be. My Ad900 barely experienced much burn-in to me, neither did my Grado SR80i or Ad700 so when I read about it I was skeptic. I forget the first pair I experienced it with, but the q-JAYS were one of the biggest changes for me. As for cables, I don't believe that yet, I'm still highly skeptic. 

 

[Danneq]

Out of the 20+ head- and earphones I have owned just 3 or 4 have had what appeared to be a different sound out of the box compared to after they had been used for around 20+ hours. In the case of my Sennheiser HD25 1:II and AKG K420, I think that both have steel/copper cables which makes the cables more durable. Steel, however, is not very conductive. At first they both had a terribly screechy and sibilant sound. Something that calmed down with use. But does this mean that something changed within the cables?
 
I recently bought a pair of TFTA 1101-V1 earbuds. They were unlistenable in the beginning, with sharp highs and an overblown bass the size of mt. Fuji. I have had them plugged into my computer playing music at regular listening volume for 20+ hours and they have become much more balanced. Unfortunately, the overly cramped soundstage does not change, something that prevents me from using them much...
 
So I have experienced changes with some headphones, something that cannot be attributed to just getting used to the sound. Since earphones transfer electrical signals (i.e. music), I would like to say that they do change a bit over time. However, I'm not sure that it is something you always notice.