[Brava27]

I've returned to the P7's from the mdr1000x. The sound quality was just weak on the Sony's and plastic construction was awful. ANC was wonderful though. Glad I can enjoy these cans again!

 

[audioxxx]

Yeah, once you have felt the premium finish of these p7, it's hard to go back to cheap plastic, and synthetic pleathere, you have spend a lot more in the Sony range, to reach a premium, quality product.
It's great that b&w supplied such a premium headphone built with real leather materials, within a fairly reasonable price.

 

[buzzlulu]

Technical question (also posted on the B&O H9 thread)

I use Tidal for streaming and always download for offline in full resolution lossless on my iPhone 7+. I am finally having a "duh" moment and realizing that this most likely is not necessary as AAC 320 should suffice. I am using Bluetooth in my car and now Bluetooth with the H9 - which I also assume the maximum transmission rate will only accommodate AAC 320.

So why am I bothering with Tidal HiRes if the streaming to the car and headphones is via Bluetooth? I can most likely switch to AAC 320 and save space on my phone.

In the same way my question is if I want to transcode my FLAC files to store on the iPhone and use with the H9 via Bluetooth (and BT in the car) then 320 MP3 or 320 AAC should suffice as that will be the highest resolution capable of being streamed via Bluetooth. And finally any preference between 320 MP3 vs. 320 AAC?

Thanks

 

[Sonic Defender]

Technical question (also posted on the B&O H9 thread)

I use Tidal for streaming and always download for offline in full resolution lossless on my iPhone 7+. I am finally having a "duh" moment and realizing that this most likely is not necessary as AAC 320 should suffice. I am using Bluetooth in my car and now Bluetooth with the H9 - which I also assume the maximum transmission rate will only accommodate AAC 320.

So why am I bothering with Tidal HiRes if the streaming to the car and headphones is via Bluetooth? I can most likely switch to AAC 320 and save space on my phone.

In the same way my question is if I want to transcode my FLAC files to store on the iPhone and use with the H9 via Bluetooth (and BT in the car) then 320 MP3 or 320 AAC should suffice as that will be the highest resolution capable of being streamed via Bluetooth. And finally any preference between 320 MP3 vs. 320 AAC?

Thanks

You are correct, at least based on my experience, above 320 sampling rate is essentially transparent to the listener. People think they can hear the difference, but when you actually see the results of valid testing people actually can't tell a 320mp3 file from a lossless master it was made from. I have never heard there is any significant difference in formats such as you were asking about, assuming the encoder used was good, and most these days are good. When mp3 technology was new there were poor encoders around, but while I'm not an expert by any means, it is my understanding that the most widely deployed encoders are certainly good.
 
I also downgraded my lossless Tidal account to the 320AAC level as I couldn't hear the difference using pretty good gear, both speaker and headphone rigs, so I saved the money. I'm not sure that the downloaded content you can save is actually 320. I am not positive, but I remember reading that some believed the sample rate for off-line content was lower? I'm not sure, maybe somebody can comment on that as I really am also curious about that.

 

[buzzlulu]

Sonic
 
Thanks
 
Tidal claims that their "high quality" is AAC 320 so for now I am going to assume that the offline downloads are the same bitrate.
 
I understand your statement about listeners being unable to differentiate between 320 and lossless.  Can you confirm that Bluetooth is able to only stream 320 bit files?  I am quite sure that this is the case.
 
I agree with you about the two tiers of TIDAL service (lossless vs. compressed) however for some users (me included) our big rig systems (Naim, Linn etc.) have partnered with Tidal and our streamers pull uncompressed files directly from Tidal servers.  Absolutely great as I now effectively have 30 million tracks PLAYING in full CD quality on my big rig.
 
I think I am going to transcode my FLAC files to 320 AAC (vs. MP3) so that I can store them on my iPhone.  AAC simply because it is the preferred flavor of iOS devices.

 

[Julien]

 
Quote:

   
...I think I am going to transcode my FLAC files to 320 AAC (vs. MP3) so that I can store them on my iPhone.  AAC simply because it is the preferred flavor of iOS devices.

AAC is MP4 and is a more efficient/modern codec than MP3. Many consider it a fair comparison to compare a 320kbps MP3 to 256kbps (or lower) AAC as about an equivalent.  Also FAR more important to sound quality degradation is transcoding lossy to lossy. Transcoding from MP3 to AAC lowers SQ exponentially. So in a nutshell you should use AAC and not MP3 if not lossless.
 
For lossless you could transcode your FLAC tracks to ALAC tracks with no loss in qulity. They will take about the same amount of space (about 3x 320kbps) though.

 

[Sonic Defender]

  ... Can you confirm that Bluetooth is able to only stream 320 bit files?  I am quite sure that this is the case.
 
 

I actually believe apt X is capable of above 320, but below 400 as a sample rate. If I get a chance I can look that up, but for me I use apt X as the current Bluetooth benchmark as it is very well supported. Cheers.

 

[buzzlulu]

Thanks
The only problem for me is that my iPhone does not support Apt X. Thank you very much Apple

 

[Sonic Defender]

Thanks
The only problem for me is that my iPhone does not support Apt X. Thank you very much Apple

Still, if you find the sound already good through Apple, I hope you can enjoy it. What is the sample rate supported by the Apple codec?

 

[Julien]

  Still, if you find the sound already good through Apple, I hope you can enjoy it. What is the sample rate supported by the Apple codec?

I believe it is 320kbps AAC, which would mean NO transcoding if using Apple sourced music. I used to obsess over the details (even own a fair number of DVD-A and SA-CD's). Original ripped my CDs (almost 3000) to 320kbps AAC (I think) and when ALAC came out I went back and re-ripped them all to lossless. Now I use Apple Music (256kbps AAC) and couldn't be happier. The individual mastering and quality differences of each track FAR, FAR, far outweigh any differences between 256kbps AAC and lossless.
 
 
EDIT: Found a developer white paper that indicates Apple uses 265kbps (not typo but 264,630 bps) AAC over BT. This is to probably cover 256kbps tracks with headroom.
https://developer.apple.com/hardwaredrivers/BluetoothDesignGuidelines.pdf

 

[popejohnlarue]

Hey folks,

Haven't posted here since I nabbed some JVC FXT-90s a few years ago. Those are still some great budget iems, but they've been hurting my ear canals of late and they tend to get pretty harsh at volume levels required for air travel, so I'm thinking of getting a proper set of cans to replace them.

I'm an experienced studio musician/producer type looking primarily for a musical sound signature--balanced, but not an overly analytical--with an immersive soundstage and good detail. I like the sound signature of my FXT90s alright, but they're definitely as far as I'd want to go toward a v-shaped consumer-oriented signature. These P7s seem to fit the bill, but their mid-bass hump has me worried these are closer to "Beats on steroids" than proper audiophile headphones.

I've read up bunch about the competition--Audeze Sine (hyped, lacking soundstage), PM-3 (better with an amp, lacking soundstage), the NADs (ugly and uncomfortable for some), and I've tried the QC-35 and Sony flagship NC cans at Bestbuy and neither impressed me from a build/sound quality perspective. (NC was nice, though!)

Anyway, tl;dr: is the P7 wireless truly good enough for audio snobs?

 

[aut0maticdan]

Wired-to-Mojo Initial Impressions:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/818940/bowers-wilkins-p7-wireless-impressions-thread/540#post_13091201
 
Just about a week of heavy use and these things are much more comfortable now.  The clamp is a non-issue.  One thing I like over the Grados is that the adjustments hold on my headphone stand, so my setup time for each session is minimal.
 
In wireless mode, these cans leave a good deal on the table (when compared to the Mojo).  I’ve underestimated this little wonder box by Chord at every step starting with the look I gave (other) Steve at In Living Stereo after he slid it across the desk, with no explanation, when I inquired about a new DAC and amp for my desktop.   Still, I’m surprised how much of a difference it makes in this case.  It makes more than a $600 difference to the P7 wireless sound, IMO.
 
I did A/B pretty frequently when I came across something that didn’t sound quite right via wireless.  Here is the sort of stuff I’m picking up:
 
Music source feels farther away.  I’m getting a bit of distortion all across the spectrum and soundstage/placement is not as good.  There is a much louder noise floor than what the Mojo has.
 
Rock guitar and other highs/mids can get quite disorganized during busy moments.  This is the most obvious issue which quickly leads to fatigue for me.  Tracks like Glass Onion on the White Album (24-bit FLAC files) are challenging to listen to, for example.  I get similarly fatigued listening to artists such as Nirvana, Refused and JEFF The Brotherhood.
 
Bass loses quite a bit of control and comes off sounding warmer/slightly distorted.  There is less texture and separation between low frequencies.   It still can be quite satisfying, though.  
 
A lot of the dancy-er stuff, R&B, Hip-Hop with healthy bass and strong separation of frequencies stays very engaging and sounding great via wireless.  It is only noticeably different from the Mojo when A/B testing.  Generally, I was enjoying these genres as much as usual.
 
Softer acoustic, jazz and not-very-busy classical piano/orchestra sound great.  I find soundstage/placement and noise floor are the most obvious things that suffer with these genres.
 
These still sound quite good via wireless and I don’t expect you’ll find much better elsewhere.  In wireless mode the P7s are very impressive [for] wireless.  You still hear a lot of what makes the P7 sound sweet and articulate, it is just, maybe, you are sitting in a less optimal seat in the room or you pulled the treatments off the walls.  P7s, when wireless, still sound better than most fully closed wired headphones that I’ve sampled.  Ready to sacrifice wireless, I stopped after this test to consider other closed options which I may find better than the P7 through the Mojo but I couldn’t come up with any.  (But, I'm totally open to suggestions)  The best Beyer and Fostex are only mostly closed allowing sound to leak both ways and generally aren’t portable.  Same goes for the P9s.  That kills most of the use cases I wanted these for.  I already have RS1is and not-even-unboxed-$269-new-so-why-wouldn't-I-buy-them HD600s, not to mention the cord for the P7s, so I have options when I just want something better, more open or to scratch a different itch.  Easy decisions to stick with these.
 
I don’t know if it is the streaming protocols APTX and AAC behind the differences that I hear when comparing to the Mojo, but I think the more likely culprit is the built-in DAC and amp.  The contrast I experience is no more subtle on Spotify tracks.  I get the fatigue I often get with DACs.  I had very little issue with fatigue the first several days of listening, only rocking through the Mojo.  To be fair, though, I find closed headphones fatiguing and I did the wireless testing after several days of spending too much time listening to closed headphones.  I may be generally tiring of testing these HPs out.  I’ve decided I really like them and they are staying, so I can now relax and just enjoy them in their designated slot in my rotation.  I recommend a dosage of salt—approximately one grain.
 
Devices used for testing wireless:
Mac Pro current 6-core model ’13 (APTX, SBC)
Macbook current model (APTX)
iPhone 6s Plus (AAC)
AppleTV (AAC—I assume)
Nexus 5X (SBC—I assume)
 
I started with the Macbook and worked my way over to the iPhone (my primary device).  I could not detect a difference between APTX and AAC, though I did not A/B this exhaustively.  I tested with the Mac Pro and immediately had trouble.  It sounded like crap and I let out an audible “OMG.”  The Mac Pro initially picked SBC for some reason and I had to force it to APTX.  Even at this point, I continued to have problems.  It never sounded great and would occasionally cut out and switch to something that sounded like SBC or worse and then back.  This isn’t the first time I’ve had bluetooth audio problems with this machine.  I don’t know if they put a crappy chip in this unit or if it is because I have a keyboard and mouse connected.  I had no such troubles with my Macbook which enthusiastically chose APTX out of the gate.  The Nexus 5X sounded good via SBC, much better than the Mac Pro and close enough to the iPhone and Macbook that I assumed it was using APTX.  I don’t know why this would be. I’m fairly certain it doesn’t support APTX, but I initially thought it did and listening to it did not convince me otherwise.  I was fooled.
 
If your plan is to use these only wirelessly, there is no need to use better than 256k AAC or 320k MP3.  I’m not saying you should go downgrade your lossless collection, but don’t bend over backwards to feed them FLAC or worry about “wasting” them on Apple Music.  It is only when you bring other high-end gear into the chain that this may become a thing.  MAY become a thing--I very much enjoyed listening through all of my compressed streams through these connected to my Mojo.  Not a waste at all.
 
I have not compared wireless vs wired plugged into any other DAC or “stock” headphone jack.  (I also have a Musical Fidelity M1DAC I rather like and will eventually try.)  I think it is plausible I will like these better wireless than straight into an iPhone, for example.
 
These work very well in my non-hifi wireless applications.  Watching a film off of my AppleTV was fantastic.  I was fully immersed from delicate music to conversations to gunfire and loud explosions.  Listening to music on the AppleTV was a little more problematic since the volume adjustment is heavy handed and non-granular.  Still, if you can find the right volume, it sounds every bit as good as other devices supporting aac/aptx.  I had no complaints during a conference call I joined.  I find closed headphones a little boxed-in when using them for calls, but sliding the cup off my left ear proved helpful when I got overwhelmed.
 
TL;DR - These aren’t perfect headphones, but I really enjoy them and find them incredibly versatile for day-to-day.  I don’t think I’ll be listening to my favorite albums late into the night over bluetooth, but it is perfectly great for watching films on the plane or sampling my Discover Weekly while doing chores.

 

[buzzlulu]

Hey folks,

Haven't posted here since I nabbed some JVC FXT-90s a few years ago. Those are still some great budget iems, but they've been hurting my ear canals of late and they tend to get pretty harsh at volume levels required for air travel, so I'm thinking of getting a proper set of cans to replace them.

I'm an experienced studio musician/producer type looking primarily for a musical sound signature--balanced, but not an overly analytical--with an immersive soundstage and good detail. I like the sound signature of my FXT90s alright, but they're definitely as far as I'd want to go toward a v-shaped consumer-oriented signature. These P7s seem to fit the bill, but their mid-bass hump has me worried these are closer to "Beats on steroids" than proper audiophile headphones.

I've read up bunch about the competition--Audeze Sine (hyped, lacking soundstage), PM-3 (better with an amp, lacking soundstage), the NADs (ugly and uncomfortable for some), and I've tried the QC-35 and Sony flagship NC cans at Bestbuy and neither impressed me from a build/sound quality perspective. (NC was nice, though!)

Anyway, tl;dr: is the P7 wireless truly good enough for audio snobs?

What is your use scenario?  In my case I am looking for a pair of cans to use STRICTLY on an airplane.  Agreed that the NC on the new Sony is amazing - sound is not.  There is a huge difference between the P7 wireless and the Sony.  The P7, imho, sound wonderful however they will not fit my use scenario.  While I have not had them on an airplane everyone tells me they will not be appropriate.  Scan this thread - someone said they even have to turn down the volume of the television in the same room.
 
I have settled on the new B&O H9 wireless with ANC.  While the ANC does not compare to the Sony or Bose I am hopeful that it will more or less do the job on an airplane.  With reference to the sound - while I initially thought the P7 wireless had the edge I am starting to change my opinion (both cans are still in the house) and am coming to the conclusion that while they are different both are equally good.  The bass hump in the P7 might be a problem for some - and that is what brings the new B&O into a tie with the P7  - for me.
 
If you require ANC  - which you might seeing that you demoed the MX1000 and QC35 - I highly recommend you try to listen to the new B&O.  They will impress you as much as the P7 did to me and have you scratching your head at how far wireless has come.

 

[aut0maticdan]

Originally Posted by glevethan /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I have settled on the new B&O H9 wireless with ANC. 

 
Oh man!  These are brand new.  I missed them somehow and I even looked at the H7 & H8.  I was wondering if they were going to do an H7 with 4.2 and ANC.  How do they compare to the P7?
 
I'll have to go check out that thread now.
 
EDIT:  I found your initial impressions on the H9 thread.  Thanks for that.
 
It is interesting about isolation.  I don't know the difference between you and me (shape of head or tolerance?), but I haven't had much of an issue with the P7.  I haven't had problems with the Denon AH-D600s on a plane and they are just passive over-the-ear headphones.  While I haven't used the P7s on a plane, I did use them while making breakfast the other day and they handled my garbage disposal and stove fan just fine.  I could hear a TV in the same room during the quiet parts and in between tracks.  When I use them as ear cups for meditation without music or whitenose, outside noises still bleed through.  I'm curious how much better real ANC could actually be.  From accounts I've read, they really don't do much to block irregular noises such as voices very well.  My friend has offered to let me borrow his spare set of QC35s which I may take him up on.
 
I've never cared much about ANC because IEMs and over/on-ear closed-back cans have always done the job for me.  Not to say either blocks outside noises 100%, but plenty fine for me to not give a whole lot of thought to ANC.

 

[buzzlulu]

I had a pair of Etymotics IEM which served me well for airplane travel over the past 10 years.  Unfortunately I lost them.  I purchased a new pair (updated version) in September however I decided to return them.  For the past 2 years I have been using a pair of wireless PowerBeats in ear and the liberating feeling of going wireless told me that I did not want to return to wired.  That is how my search began for wireless headphones.  The P7's are great however they do not block any outside sound.  It seems that you agree by your statement "When I use them as ear cups for meditation without music or white noise, outside noises still bleed through".  I have not had the P7's to test on an airplane however my queries on this forum have led many to chime in that they will not be effective at all.
 
The ANC of the new H9 cannot compare to the new Sony however it does work.  As you stated irregular noises and voices come through (though not much on the Sony's) however how much of that is really going on in an airplane?  If the ANC works sufficiently enough to cut out a good portion of the engine noise - and let the tunes come through - then they will work for me.  There is a massive difference in sound quality between the H9's and P7's compared to the Sony and Bose ANC cans.  BIG difference.  The Sony and Bose are also cheap crappy plastic imho while the B&O and B&W exude quality.
 
Finally - the more I go back and forth between the two I come to the conclusion that the H9 is not playing second fiddle to the P7's - both are really impressive and some will prefer one to the other.  After starting out preferring the P7 I am starting to change allegiance. The emphasis in the bass on the P7 is starting to slightly work against it imho.
 
The moral of the story is that you should definitely get a hold of the new H9 before you make any final decision.