[Taikero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geruvah /img/forum/go_quote.gif No. I should've meant to say that with platinum, "will it make the water better by maybe making it softer or taste better?"

Depends. I hear lead makes the water heavier and gives the taste some true weight. It's absolutely FANTASTIC.


Quote:

Originally Posted by CompressionalFlagellation /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, if you want to go into specific detail of a simple example I made; lets assume the pipes are of exactly the same dimensions. I hope that you are not trying to correlate this to cables in that expensive ones transfer electricity faster than not so expensive ones? But hey, you're right; the thread went off topic, I pointed it out -- then joined in! Woohoo!

If one material is virtually frictionless in the pipe and the other material "grabs" water by its nature, maybe because it's a semi-porous material, the material is naturally "rough" (even at the molecular level) or is likely to rust or a number of other material-based variables.....

Additionally, you have to take into account the density of the pipe material, molecular structure, shielding, additional treating, when the material freezes/boils (freezing being the more important point), etc.


Back to cables, what about pure silver vs. silver-plated copper vs. straight copper? What about the difference between nickel-plated and gold-plated connectors (additionally, certain connectors are tipped with pure copper)? Can a reasonable person not at least admit the material makes a difference? If someone can believe that shielding makes a difference, why can't they believe that having less air/oxygen/whatever in the material/cable will help improve the cable's ability to do its job as a conductor? Less oxygen in the material is theoretically going to cut out signal loss by some amount by virtue of the material having more density. Perhaps the argument should be "Can you hear the difference?" rather than "Does it make a difference?", because it inarguably does make a difference (although depending on the differences and the measuring tests conducted, the measured difference may be very small. If so and a person hears a difference where a test says they shouldn't, perhaps the test isn't measuring for the right changes in the signal).

Regardless of price, it takes a level of pretty strong denial by anyone to think that the quality of the materials used to make a cable and the way the cable is put together to allow flexibility don't matter. Whether or not it makes a positive difference to the sound or not is a matter of debate, to be sure, but to say it makes no difference is really arrogant, IMO.

 

[olblueyez]

I just had a peice of cold fried chicken, very tasty!

 

[CompressionalFlagellation]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just had a peice of cold fried chicken, very tasty! http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3069/...612d73c4_o.jpg

mmm...I am kinda hungry...I'm going to go check if I have some bagels...


...and cream cheese.

 

[olblueyez]

Bagels??? dont have any of those but, I do have some of these!!!!

 

[Uncle Erik]

Many of you are working from bad assumptions.

Price does not equal quality.

Further, EVERY cable costs about the same to manufacture. Most "manufacturers" place an order from a shop in China then terminate it themselves so they can say they "manufactured" it. Most cables, no matter how esoteric, come from a handful of factories and cost about the same.

So, how does putting an extra $500 in someone's pocket improve your system?

It doesn't. You're just giving someone a lot of money.

Until you can separate the profit and the reality, you're just getting screwed.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Further, EVERY cable costs about the same to manufacture. Most "manufacturers" place an order from a shop in China then terminate it themselves so they can say they "manufactured" it. Most cables, no matter how esoteric, come from a handful of factories and cost about the same.

Pretty sure Belden cable stock is made in the United States.

 

[CompressionalFlagellation]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taikero /img/forum/go_quote.gif If one material is virtually frictionless in the pipe and the other material "grabs" water by its nature, maybe because it's a semi-porous material, the material is naturally "rough" (even at the molecular level) or is likely to rust or a number of other material-based variables..... Additionally, you have to take into account the density of the pipe material, molecular structure, shielding, additional treating, when the material freezes/boils (freezing being the more important point), etc.

Lol. Well, if you put it that way -- platinum water pipes all the way baby! I just better make sure to also get some sophisticated measuring equipment set up at the tap, so I can really appreciate the negligible improvement in water flow, every time I drink a glass of city punch.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Taikero /img/forum/go_quote.gif Back to cables, what about pure silver vs. silver-plated copper vs. straight copper? What about the difference between nickel-plated and gold-plated connectors (additionally, certain connectors are tipped with pure copper)? Can a reasonable person not at least admit the material makes a difference? If someone can believe that shielding makes a difference, why can't they believe that having less air/oxygen/whatever in the material/cable will help improve the cable's ability to do its job as a conductor? Less oxygen in the material is theoretically going to cut out signal loss by some amount by virtue of the material having more density. Perhaps the argument should be "Can you hear the difference?" rather than "Does it make a difference?", because it inarguably does make a difference (although depending on the differences and the measuring tests conducted, the measured difference may be very small. If so and a person hears a difference where a test says they shouldn't, perhaps the test isn't measuring for the right changes in the signal). Regardless of price, it takes a level of pretty strong denial by anyone to think that the quality of the materials used to make a cable and the way the cable is put together to allow flexibility don't matter. Whether or not it makes a positive difference to the sound or not is a matter of debate, to be sure, but to say it makes no difference is really arrogant, IMO.

Ok, to clarify my position; I am sure there is a difference -- but then again, I'm probably going to need some sophisticated measuring equipment to truly appreciate it, especially when comparing OFC to ETP copper.

I guess if we were comparing OFC to some nasty home-made wire -- melted in mom's oven, from copper-ore that uncle Vinnie found in his back yard -- then yes, I wouldn't argue that a person could easily hear a difference.

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Many of you are working from bad assumptions. Price does not equal quality. Further, EVERY cable costs about the same to manufacture. Most "manufacturers" place an order from a shop in China then terminate it themselves so they can say they "manufactured" it. Most cables, no matter how esoteric, come from a handful of factories and cost about the same. So, how does putting an extra $500 in someone's pocket improve your system? It doesn't. You're just giving someone a lot of money. Until you can separate the profit and the reality, you're just getting screwed.

Im pretty sure if people could get 300 dollar performance from a 30 dollar cable the people selling 300 dollar cables would no longer be in buisness. Just because someone is into audio equipment doesnt mean they walk around all day with a "Kick Me" sign on their shirt.

 

[Taikero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Many of you are working from bad assumptions.

Are we the only ones?

Quote:

EVERY cable costs about the same to manufacture.

Quote:

Most "manufacturers" place an order from a shop in China then terminate it themselves so they can say they "manufactured" it.

Quote:

Most cables, no matter how esoteric, come from a handful of factories and cost about the same.

Care to quantify just how you know this? You've seen these manufacturers' internal shipping orders, correct?

I agree with the general idea that a ridiculous markup isn't helping the customer, but I also find it hard to believe that SO MANY cables are the same, given the different materials cables are made with and the various ways different cables can be treated, etc. Certainly there must be at least a fair number from places other than China.

EDIT: Additionally, did you know that entire portions of the computer parts market operate on the idea that a chip came from the exact same machine, process, and was built using the same material, but mysteriously that chip will allow certain amounts of heat/load to a greater degree in order to allow X% more overclocking? You'll pay $100 more for this chip based on how well it tested after being manufactured (for good reason, I might add from personal experience). Who's to say audio cables aren't binned the same way and shipped to different manufacturers at different prices accordingly? If not, why haven't they thought of it yet?

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taikero /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree with the general idea that a ridiculous markup isn't helping the customer, but I also find it hard to believe that SO MANY cables are the same, given the different materials cables are made with and the various ways different cables can be treated, etc. Certainly there must be at least a fair number from places other than China.

We must remember we are not experts, therefore, we are susceptible to exaggeration on the part of the cable seller; we rely on the companies producing the cable to accurately and honestly specify it's properties in a easy to understand manner. Just listening to the cable in a system does not tell us what it is made out of or what sort sound it's composition produces, if any at all.

 

[XXII]

Wow, this thread has really degenerated in just a few hours. I don't think price is a clear indication of quality. But what I think is that with cables, the most important factor is synergy with the rest of your system. The point I made earlier is that if I spent $10000 on my system, I would spend a fair bit of money on other cables to determine which suited my system the best. I would not be content with just leaving it at BJC. Perhaps after trying out other cables, I might decide that BJC is the best with my system...but NOT before trying a few other cables..

 

[olblueyez]

Even if what Erik said is true then what alternatives do you have when going to buy one of these exotic cables? None. This is because the cheap cables are not the same, never were and never will be (Excluding Snake Oil Cheats). If that were true then RadioShack would sell the best cables on the market. Anyone have RadioShack cables?

 

[Taikero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove /img/forum/go_quote.gif We must remember we are not experts, therefore, we are susceptible to exaggeration on the part of the cable seller; we rely on the company's producing the cable to accurately and honestly specify it's properties in a easy to understand manner. Just listening to the cable in a system does not tell us what it is made out of or what sort sound it's composition produces, if any at all.

The only point I'm trying to make is that there's no harm in shopping around.

Try a $1 (or as close as possible), $10, $30, $50, $100, $200, $300, and $500 cable if you must. Work your way up the chain a bit, maybe buying in threes (first would be the $1, $10, $30 option). Pick one you like. Buy more in the price range of the one you liked as well as buying up the chain a bit. Eventually you'll discover either that you can't hear the difference between the cables, or that X cable at Y price point worked the best for your system and the others had such-and-such problems. Maybe you'll end up choosing a cable based on looks because you simply couldn't tell a difference sound-wise. Either way, what's important is having an open mind and coming to a conclusion only after you experiment on your own.

Also, since this hobby is all about what you hear, if you hear a difference and you like the difference, that's all that matters, not what some machine reading a signal says. I'm sure there's a machine out there that might be able to "disprove" gravity or some other irrefutable truth, but that doesn't mean when I jump I won't come straight back to Earth.

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by XXII /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, this thread has really degenerated in just a few hours. I don't think price is a clear indication of quality. But what I think is that with cables, the most important factor is synergy with the rest of your system. The point I made earlier is that if I spent $10000 on my system, I would spend a fair bit of money on other cables to determine which suited my system the best. I would not be content with just leaving it at BJC. Perhaps after trying out other cables, I might decide that BJC is the best with my system...but NOT before trying a few other cables..

This is the thing. People assume it may be placebo on my part and I have been through two sets of ICs and two headphone cables to find what I was looking for. If you get burned the first time out and assume cables are snake oil then you are probably missing out, especially if you spent 10 G's on your system. Sure I lost some money ditching the cables I didnt like, accactually that isnt true, I forced both cable makers to take their cables back. So the experiment for me didnt cost a dime and I am extremely pleased with what I have now and also with the cost of the cables I have now. It took some time and patience on my part though.

 

[FallenAngel]

Completely depends on the rest of your system. It's plain stupidity to spend $300 on cables with a $700 system, you're better off spending $900 on the system and $100 on cables (or $950 / $50 if you get a very good budget cable), but with $2000 smartly spent on the gear, $300 on cables will make a difference you can really hear. This is obviously IN MY EXPERIENCE, IN MY SYSTEM AND IN MY OPINION.