[grawk]

I definitely don't hate the SR71. It's an inconvenient headamp, because it only runs on 9vs, but I didn't mind the sound of it. But it'd be hard to justify using any portable amp over the built in amp in the pico or the duet.

 

[edwardsean]

It is partially a matter of preference, whether you want clear or colored (Duet being far on the clear side). However, quality does come into play. I adore the Duet, but it is an all in one package: AD/DA, 2 preamps, 1 headphone out for 500. My outboard preamps clearly better the built in preamps. But, they also retail for 3000. The Duet's pres are surprisingly/ shockingly usable and neutral without being boring. I would say the same thing about the headphone out as well. A dedicated unit, by the builders we're talking about, will improve upon it, but it is still amazingly good.

For, what it's worth. I returned the Pico comparing it as DAC+amp and the Duet DAC+amp. Even there, I still thought the Duet came out ahead. Adding the external amp only occurred to me later. Then, I was over the moon.

 

[TR909]

Would the variable xlr outs be near identical in output to those on the mini-dac? I'm wondering how the duet would work amplifying balanced 650's? I have the Pico now but am looking for a balanced dac to feed my studio monitors as well as power the senn's and was resigned to the mini-dac or crossing the next budget threshold but this looks like a better solution for me until I can afford a balanced amp. Anyone try it?


EDIT: *NVM - just realized no balanced outs L

 

[jp11801]

Quote:

Originally Posted by edwardsean /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is partially a matter of preference, whether you want clear or colored (Duet being far on the clear side). However, quality does come into play. I adore the Duet, but it is an all in one package: AD/DA, 2 preamps, 1 headphone out for 500. My outboard preamps clearly better the built in preamps. But, they also retail for 3000. The Duet's pres are surprisingly/ shockingly usable and neutral without being boring. I would say the same thing about the headphone out as well. A dedicated unit, by the builders we're talking about, will improve upon it, but it is still amazingly good. For, what it's worth. I returned the Pico comparing it as DAC+amp and the Duet DAC+amp. Even there, I still thought the Duet came out ahead. Adding the external amp only occurred to me later. Then, I was over the moon.

first to clear up a few things from this post, there is not a pre amp in the dac just a variable ouput, you may consider this a pre but I do not, the variable output simply provides attenuation of the signal. The pre's that are in the dac are mike pre amps for recording. People please keep in ind this is a pro audio piece of gear.
Most amps in the transportable/portable market will most likely not improve on the duet built in amp. If you prefer the handprint a certain amp places on the sound of all your recordings then by all means add mayo and salt/pepper to your sound. Funny most audio junkies try to eliminate colorations, compression and distortions but what ever floats your boat.

BTW I owned and liked the SR71 but I would urge duet users to try the built in amp first. I would not recommend the built in amp if you have a dedicated home amp of high quality. If you are using the duet as a tranportable or as a desktop all in one you will most likely be happy with the headphone jack it has. I have found the apogees to my ears like most grados.

Also another quick tidbit that is often missed by member here, most boutique amp builders here work on a significantly higher profit margin than pro audio manufactures and they do not have the exonomy of scale people like apogee has, not to mention design and enginerring resources. If most of these portable amps were made by pro audio companies they would be significantly cheaper, IMHO. This is not to paint the amp maker as greedy or evil, they are not, there business model is just different.

 

[Jaska]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp11801 /img/forum/go_quote.gif most boutique amp builders here work on a significantly higher profit margin than pro audio manufactures and they do not have the exonomy of scale people like apogee has, not to mention design and enginerring resources.

Also of significance to me at least is that the Duet is actually made in the USA rather than farmed out like so many other electronic devices. It's quite a value for the modest price, all things considered.

 

[edwardsean]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp11801 /img/forum/go_quote.gif first to clear up a few things from this post, there is not a pre amp in the dac just a variable ouput, you may consider this a pre but I do not, the variable output simply provides attenuation of the signal. The pre's that are in the dac are mike pre amps for recording.

Thanks for clarifying that. Yes, I was referring to the mic. preamps not that the Duet has preamped outs. I was making a parallel between the Duet's mic preamps and the headphone amp. I use both and they remind me of each other. They are more than adequate but both are improved by dedicated standalone gear. Both are also on the neutral side to serve, as you pointed out, pro applications (at an entry-level).

I would take issue with you though when you say that audiophiles are trying to avoid sonic coloration. I produce music and listen to music, and it's the same on both ends. You want to avoid negative kinds of color, distortion, compression, but many times, want positive elements of all three. There are uncontrolled colorations which only degrade the sound. Then there are euphonic colorations (tonal as well as compression and distortion too) often associated with tubes and vinyl in the highest end of components. I'm sure you understand. It depends what you like. The Duet doesn't have that color, and it wasn't designed for it. That's fine, but if you want that particular sound (2nd order harmonics and such), there are builders who have that as their aim.

You're last point though is dead on. A large corporation like Apogee can produce higher level gear for less, and even then the Duet is a marvel of price/performance. I'm thrilled with it both to create with and listen on.

 

[Jeremy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by edwardsean /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for clarifying that. Yes, I was referring to the mic. preamps not that the Duet has preamped outs. I was making a parallel between the Duet's mic preamps and the headphone amp. I use both and they remind me of each other. They are more than adequate but both are improved by dedicated standalone gear. Both are also on the neutral side to serve, as you pointed out, pro applications (at an entry-level). I would take issue with you though when you say that audiophiles are trying to avoid sonic coloration. I produce music and listen to music, and it's the same on both ends. You want to avoid negative kinds of color, distortion, compression, but many times, want positive elements of all three. There are uncontrolled colorations which only degrade the sound. Then there are euphonic colorations (tonal as well as compression and distortion too) often associated with tubes and vinyl in the highest end of components. I'm sure you understand. It depends what you like. The Duet doesn't have that color, and it wasn't designed for it. That's fine, but if you want that particular sound (2nd order harmonics and such), there are builders who have that as their aim.

So, to a mere mortal like me who loves his Grado RS-1s and his Ray Samuels SR-71 who is looking to maximize his MacBook Pro as a source, are you saying the Pico would be better for me because it has more "accessible" sound quality colored for pleasure rather than for accuracy, or would I be equally or more pleased with the Duet out to the SR-71 which is also colored for pleasure? I'm assuming you're saying that the excellent but colorless headamp within the Duet would lack the same pleasure factor created by the Pico or SR-71...

 

[grawk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, to a mere mortal like me who loves his Grado RS-1s and his Ray Samuels SR-71 who is looking to maximize his MacBook Pro as a source, are you saying the Pico would be better for me because it has more "accessible" sound quality colored for pleasure rather than for accuracy, or would I be equally or more pleased with the Duet out to the SR-71 which is also colored for pleasure? I'm assuming you're saying that the excellent but colorless headamp within the Duet would lack the same pleasure factor created by the Pico or SR-71...

I don't think you'd need the SR71 with either the duet or the pico. That however is up to your ears. I spent a lot of time with both amps, and with the SR71 in the past. The SR71 doesn't offer an improvement over the pico and the duet amp sections, tho personal preference may lead you to pick it.

 

[Jeremy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grawk /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think you'd need the SR71 with either the duet or the pico. That however is up to your ears. I spent a lot of time with both amps, and with the SR71 in the past. The SR71 doesn't offer an improvement over the pico and the duet amp sections, tho personal preference may lead you to pick it.

Actually, it's because I already own the SR-71 that I mention it. I've had the SR-71 for three years and love it. I think it synergizes beautifully with my RS1s, at least to my ears. This is gong to be my first upgrade since then and I guess I'm simply going to have to accept that I have a redundancy in my gear, or else sell it. So forget the Sr-71, which do you think someone like myself is likely to prefer for sound quality, Pico or Duet?

 

[Jaska]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've had the SR-71 for three years and love it. I think it synergizes beautifully with my RS1s, at least to my ears.

Why aren't you considering a Predator? I love my RSA Hornet, so of course if I were looking for something like the Hornet except with a DAC, I would first look at the Predator.

It's too bad the top headphone amplifier manufacturers aren't coming to market with DAC-only options, since many people are just looking for DACs and don't need another amp. In my opinion it would be nice to save some money and order something as DAC-only, and for an additional expense, add a headphone amp if desired.

 

[Jeremy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaska /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why aren't you considering a Predator? I love my RSA Hornet, so of course if I were looking for something like the Hornet except with a DAC, I would first look at the Predator. It's too bad the top headphone amplifier manufacturers aren't coming to market with DAC-only options, since many people are just looking for DACs and don't need another amp. In my opinion it would be nice to save some money and order something as DAC-only, and for an additional expense, add a headphone amp if desired.

I completely agree about the DAC only product. I've been wishing for exactly the same thing. As for the Predator, it was going to be my first choice until all the comparisons came flooding in, and the resounding verdict on here seemed to be that the Pico was far superior, at least in terms of its DAC.

 

[Jaska]

Well my purchase has already been made, and I will likely never hear the Pico, although I do place a lot of value on the positive comments it's garnered here in its young life.

Still, I would be reluctant to believe it could outperform the Duet as a DAC. Speaking from a purely functional standpoint, I would not choose something like the Pico over the Duet for my own needs. I don't need to take an amp and DAC along with me everywhere I go in my pocket. I've had a Hornet for about a year and have taken it along with me to the office about twice since I've owned it, so I personally see very little value in ultraportability since anything extra to attach to the likes of an iPod simply isn't worth it away from the nightstand where its rightful home is.

The design of the Duet is far more ergonomic, and desktop friendly. It has a normal 1/4" headphone jack, which is already a significant improvement over the Pico's more limiting mini jack. I would much prefer to use mini-to-1/4" adapters for headphones when necessary rather than the other way around. Also, the Pico really doesn't have "standard" line outs for feeding an external headphone amp if you should want to use one. The Duet's breakout cable, while ugly, can easily be dangled down over the back of a desk or table, and normal high-quality interconnects can be used to feed various audio gear. There is also no rechargeable battery to worry about, and FireWire (in my opinion) is a better interface than USB. The size of the Duet is a plus, as it won't go sliding around the desk like a Pico would. Finally, if you found you were pleased (which I think you would be) with the headphone section of the Duet, you could just use it and then have many other I/O options at your disposal via the breakout cable, such as feeding powered monitors.

 

[Jeremy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaska /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well my purchase has already been made, and I will likely never hear the Pico, although I do place a lot of value on the positive comments it's garnered here in its young life. Still, I would be reluctant to believe it could outperform the Duet as a DAC. Speaking from a purely functional standpoint, I would not choose something like the Pico over the Duet for my own needs. I don't need to take an amp and DAC along with me everywhere I go in my pocket. I've had a Hornet for about a year and have taken it along with me to the office about twice since I've owned it, so I personally see very little value in ultraportability since anything extra to attach to the likes of an iPod simply isn't worth it away from the nightstand where its rightful home is. The design of the Duet is far more ergonomic, and desktop friendly. It has a normal 1/4" headphone jack, which is already a significant improvement over the Pico's more limiting mini jack. I would much prefer to use mini-to-1/4" adapters for headphones when necessary rather than the other way around. Also, the Pico really doesn't have "standard" line outs for feeding an external headphone amp if you should want to use one. The Duet's breakout cable, while ugly, can easily be dangled down over the back of a desk or table, and normal high-quality interconnects can be used to feed various audio gear. There is also no rechargeable battery to worry about, and FireWire (in my opinion) is a better interface than USB. The size of the Duet is a plus, as it won't go sliding around the desk like a Pico would. Finally, if you found you were pleased (which I think you would be) with the headphone section of the Duet, you could just use it and then have many other I/O options at your disposal via the breakout cable, such as feeding powered monitors.

Very interesting breakdown. Thank you. I've been quite torn about this decision and the only thing that has stopped me deciding on the Duet over the Pico is the opinion of its good but colorless to the point of tasteless amp. I love the tube-like rich sound of the SR-71 amp and am worried I'm going to end up with a clinical emotionless sound coming from the headamp of the Duet. If ONLY I could hear them both, then I could make my own decision with my own ears once and for all. But that is not an option, sadly.

 

[OptionTrader]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thank you. I've been quite torn about this decision and the only thing that has stopped me deciding on the Duet over the Pico is the opinion of its good but colorless to the point of tasteless amp.

While everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion, mine is that I would have to disagree that the Duet is uncolored to the point of being tasteless.

 

[Jaska]

I wouldn't worry about the neutrality of the amp in the Duet. It certainly doesn't sound "sterile" to me.

Headphones all have their own idiosyncrasies and I think it's better overall to leave the matters of personal sonic preferences up to headphones rather than amps. Once you find a good, neutral amp, you can experiment with headphones all you like and find the combinations you like the most.

I think it would be quite a bad thing to have to compensate for colorations in an amp's sonic presentation, and if you were lucky, maybe you'd find one particular headphone that would sound "right" with such an amp.

I've not owned a good DAC before, and am now more convinced than ever that having a truly great source will make more of an improvement to the listening experience than any minor variations in headphone amps.

There is no waiting list for the Duet, and you could probably order one from a flexible merchant with a good return/exchange policy and have it in your hands within a couple of days to try it out. If you don't like it, you could return it and order the Pico. My guess is that a couple of days would not make much of an impact on the status of your order on the Pico waiting list, but I could be wrong...