[lini]

Neruda: Yeah, that leather headband is really nice.

Tim D: Oh, maybe I should mention, that harsh treble is what bothers me most - and the K401 seemed definitely harsher to me than the K501. I didn't really compare the bass except from a short listen to the sound in genereal. After that I concentrated on mid-range and treble, where the K501 seemed superior. But from how I look at the graphs I would prefer the K501 for higher impedant outputs, whereas the K401 should work better for output impedancies below 240 Ohm. I now wish I had compared them for bass extension, too, but I didn't. So it could well be that the K401 provides a little more punch - but when punch is needed the beyerdynamic DT531 is my best choice at the moment, anyway. Far comfier than the SR80, which only seems to be nice with low impedant (below 60 Ohm, I'd think) outputs, anyway - otherwise it will sound thin and very harsh, it almost brings the comfort of the K501, but provides some more bass extension and much more impact. Soundstage-wise the DT531 is also not a bad contender at all. And I also like the sound of the Philips HP890 more than the K501. The Philips provides a very good balance with very deep bass extension, nice impact, and a very wide flat bandwith from bass up to the lower highs - only the medium to upper highs seem to be a bit harsh on higher impedent outputs. Nevertheless the HP890 is a bit huge and bulky on my head and the clamping fouce could be a little higher so that it wouldn't hang over my ears at all, which it does a bit...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[Xander]

The thought that the treble on the K401s was harsh NEVER crossed my mind. Actually, I thought quite the opposite.. What source was this on?

The best I can describe the treble on the K401s is "airy" and "smooth". Well defined, as well. Crash cymbals have good separation and definition. None of that hissy harsh stuff here, like those sertain Senn phones I tried... Even my Megadeth CD is in tolerable boundaries, and that has to be the harshest CD i've ever heard in my LIFE.

The upper mids are a bit recessed, but the rest of the spectrum has a really creamy smooth sortof sound. Really makes heavily distorted guitar sound great. Some vocals can be outright phenominal, as well. And some that use the upper mids, can seem a bit distant, too. It's not at all bad, though. Just nit picking.

Oh yeah.. and that soundstage.. Gawd.. Not to mention, these seem to produce a more "in front of your face" image, rather then directly inside your head.

btw, Neruda.. Am I going psycho, or on some recordings, does it appear as though some sounds are coming from above your head?!

 

[Xander]

Actually, from the looks of the response graph, it is very possible that the highs could become a bit harsh in some instances, since there is some pretty good peaking going on. My source kindof sucks, so I cant even drive these things that loud. Some recordings do have a harsh top end, though, when I really drive them past the 50 mark on my volume knob. It's fine at normal, to high levels, though, so I'm attributing this to my source. I also have a very low tolerance for brightness, and especially harshness, which is why I downright loathed the Grado SR80s.

Amazingly, though, with this upper-mid recess, and that peaking, I find these things sounding very full and dynamic, especially with drum hits. It doesnt at all sound like theres a gap in the responce, albeit the one on the graph isnt really that large. This is different with the Grados, however, where everything sounded like banging sheet metal. Augh...

 

[Neruda]

I'm with Xander. I think the K401's treble is very smooth. And yeah, sometimes I do hear things coming from above or below. It's an impressive illusion, and i've heard about it before. it's sort of like binaural recordings; you'd be amazed at how well headphones can image. With a good binaural recording you can hear things go behind you, above you, below you, everywhere. It's unbelievable.

 

[Xander]

I'm all-out headphone freak now, man...

I used to be an audio nut case.. Yeah, separates, nice speakers, been there, done that. Not all that much fun if you ask me. I invested so much money and time, and NEVER got the kind of enjoyment I'm getting from these headphones that cost a mere $120. Actually, I got a lot of headaches, being un satisfied with my equipment, gluing padding to my walls.. Making funny tubes to trap refracting bass...

Phase problems? Crossovers? Multiple Drivers? Room Acoustics? Having to sit in a narrow 2" area to get the full imaging and dynamics affect? No thanks!

Headphones are my kinda deal.

 

[Xander]

man.. I just slap these headphones on, and I'm enveloped in beautiful sound, dynamics, everything..

Ahhhhhh. I dont even HAVE speakers in my bedroom anymore! Screw that! Even the best audio system and speakers in the WORLD, cant give you the ambient dynamic wonderful sound you get from strapping two speakers directly on your ears!

 

[Neruda]

Xander, that's awesome to hear! I'm glad I steered you in the right direction. I'm taking a close look at speakers right now, and I'm starting to think that it might be a bit too much of a hassle. There's so much more to worry about with speakers! I want to use fulrange drivers but the ones I want are too expensive or need a hornloaded enclosure that's too difficult to make, then I need to get all the equipment they'd need, and maybe when I got them all set up and ready I would realize that they don't image well or sound bad in my room or something, and then I've spent a lot of money with nasty results. Maybe I should get a nice amp for my AKG's and stop there!

 

[Xander]

Neruda, get an amp and be a happy man. A good audio system, with some good speakers is a nice thing to have. Trying to make it sound good, is just impossible after you've had a taste of real sound, listening to those AKGs.

Even with the best audio components, and most superior room treatments, i dont think you can achieve the sound quality your AKGs offer you. Aside from a natural in the audience image, and sound you can feel, headphones are pretty much superior in every way, as they avoid all of the downfalls speakers have as easily as just placing the speakers on your head, instead of in front of you...

Also, even the BEST speakers image poorly at best, compared to headphones. Theres ALWAYS crossfeed. But then, the image gives you a more natural at-audience soundstage... A fuzzy one, at that.

The question is, what do you want? To be WITH the performers, on the stage? Or to sit in the distance and listen to them play?

 

[Neruda]

that's a good point xander. Perhaps I'm really a headphone person at heart. it just seems that to get the sound I want out of speakers the price would be way too much.

 

[Xander]

If you do it right, you can approach really good sound for a pretty low price. Theres still something "there" when you listen to speakers, that headphones just dont have. It's a different kindof thing. Up to individual preferences, IMO.

Speakers can sound very good, but they're never going to sound like a pair of headphones. Dont let me discourage you from speakers, though. You may even find you enjoy using both. It just takes a lot of dedication getting good sound from a speaker system.

 

[joelongwood]

Quote:

Maybe I should get a nice amp for my AKG's and stop there!

If you don't want to spend a lot of money, Neruda, I wholeheartedly recommend contacting JMT and see if he'll build you a Penguin or Altoid amp. I've been running the 501s off this all day, and the sound is wonderful.....rich and dynamic. His amps sound great with all my headphones. And I'm also using the SW-SL870 you recommended way back when.
The RA-1, MG head and Creek gather a lot of dust around here. I don't think you would be disappointed in the least.

 

[Xander]

Also, some pointers..

You may want to look into flat panel speakers, or ones using ribbon drivers. Martin Logan, etc. An X-Friend of mine had a pair of Carver Platinum Amazings, which offered pretty breathtaking imaging and realism, and the bass that comes out of 6 12" woofers, well.. It's incredible. They can be had for a couple of grand, as well.

Listening to symphonic music on those speakers gave you a sense of music that can only be experienced at high levels, where you can FEEL the soundwaves hitting your body. This kind of realism cant be had with headphones, sadly..

Also, Polk Audios older speakers (SDA (Stereo Dimensional Array)) are excellent. They have a technique that reduces the ammount of crossfeed, that portrays a very good stereo image. They can be had fairly cheap, depending on model, and are frequently found on ebay, as well.

I also found that Tubes, are the cheapest way to experience good sound at a low price, as well. There is a LOT of circuitry involved in solid state amplification that colours the sound, and cheaper tube amps generally sound LEAUGES better then extremely expencive solid state amplifers.

Ofcourse, this is all opinion.. If you like grainy harsh poor sound, use a cheap solid state amp.

 

[Neruda]

well Xander, I don't have much money, so I spend a lot of time trying to find ways to make any home system I hope to have cheaper. As for speakers, I like the idea of a wide-band driver with a ribbon tweeter covering the highs above 10khz, but that can be expensive and difficult. Mainly I want high efficiency so that i can use lower powered amps (Like the Monarchy Audio SM-70, which is 25WPC; not really low, but something over 90db is probably a good idea). One of the possibilities I've been messing with is the idea of using a Fostex FE167 fullrage driver in a bookshelf design. That would give me 95db efficiency and good bass into the 40's most likely. That would also be relatively cheap compared to a lot of other possibilities. But I have no idea how well it would image or anything like that. At least it would be simple: no horn, no crossover.

Any ideas that I have for overall systems would cost me about $3000 overall if I didn't make anything, and something like that would be a few years off. I know that anything cheaper than that wouldn't compare to my AKG's. So it would probably be best to get an amp for them and just enjoy that until I can afford speakers.

 

[noguilt]

fwiw, here's my comment from http://headwize.powerpill.org/ubb/sh...num=1&tid=2837 :

I've not heard the 301's, but have owned the 401's and 501's. Bought the 501's first, wanted more and better bass, but otherwise loved the 501's, so i tried the 401's, but sent them back. The bass on the 401's was no heftier than the 501's and a lot more spongy, so to speak--less "quick," less well-defined. I also did not care for the mid's and hi's on the 401's, compared to the 501's.

 

[Xander]

Neruda, I was thinking of a ribon driver handling something along the lines of 120hz to 20khz. Though, you're right. It can get really expencive.

Your best bet would probably be to stick with fullrange drivers then, and build some good cabinates for them. Your amp isnt bad, either. So you should get some good results.