[markl]

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Another nail in the coffin for expensive cables?

Nail in what coffin? You see a collapse in the aftermarket cable market? Must have missed this. Which brands have gone under so far?

 

[Puppysmith]

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Originally Posted by JadeEast /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I'm going to boycott Pear cables for pulling out of the challenge.

Maybe they did not think their cables would produce enough of a difference to win and by not winning, their company would be trying to explain how Monster Cables beat out a $7K cable in a test where a certified expert decided the outcome.

 

[Puppysmith]

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Originally Posted by markl /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nail in what coffin? You see a collapse in the aftermarket cable market? Must have missed this. Which brands have gone under so far?

Another reason to not purchase expensive cables if a company that produces $7K cables does not think they can beat a $29 cable.

 

[Riboge]

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Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think it's obvious. I believe the assumption that audiophiles have better hearing then the average person is one of the biggest myths in hi-fi. That's a whole different topic though . . .

What does this have to do with it's being obvious that in the species comparative sense we all hear pretty much the same, but that among humans some people can hear significantly more than others without that meaning they have better hearing. These two uses of "hear" have different though related meanings which are tendentiously muddled in these discussions.

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Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif By the way, what is the source of this "auditory memory is only 6 seconds" quote I see all the time? I know certain facets of my auditory memory can be measured in years -- I've gotten a call from a college roomate before and knew instantly who he was even though we haven't spoken in a long time. I know that I'm probably not the only person who can tell when someone is calling them from their cell or their landline based purely on sound. I am not claming that the differences between ordinary cables is anywhere within orders of magnitudes of the differences between voices or phones, but that quote really needs some context.

Thanks for echoing this about a friend's voice which I cited months ago in one of these cable discussions. I don't know the reference for the memory study, but I do know the samples for testing were brief meaningless sounds, which are far further removed from the difference cables make than a friend's voice.

 

[Riboge]

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Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The point is , is there an audible difference between speaker cables, it matters not one jot what the underlying mechanisms for auditory perception are. What is at question is can a person detect a difference due to different cable, anatomy , physiology, philosophy and so forth are simply not relevant to the test. No wishing to give any kudos to Skinner but in this case it is a black box, there are inputs and outputs and we just dont care what is in the box.

If you perform a given test, yes, the result are the results, BUT...It makes a big difference in relation to those that insist it CAN NOT be done, that people are incapable of learning to hear such differences and that therefore any test result seeming to demonstrate that a difference has been heard can not be due to a difference in the cables and that therefore there is some flaw in the test whether evident or not. And it makes a difference if the test conditions interfere with or minimize the factors that make it possible for a trained listener to make such delicate differentiations.

You make it sound as if there is any agreement about what "an audible difference between speaker cables" means in practice (operationally) as opposed to in the abstract. How could it be more evident that we don't.

 

[Sovkiller]

Guys stop arguing about the same. Please understand for a good darn time, that we have been arguing for decades like that, wanna know why? It is very simple, because nobody had supplied the evidences needed to disprove either one of the sides, and until this happen just believe what you want and try to be happy...
Just please be considerate with the other field, and do not offend the others, same way we respect politics and religion, we should respect the cables issue, as IMO it is based in the same approach more or less: faith. No evidence, and to me it is a faith, believe and argue all you want, and you are only defending or detracting some kind of a faith...period...

You will see a few of those guys, planning to go for the challenge, and later on at the last minute, any accident will happen and they can not go, (including maybe secret arrangements with the manufacturers, that at the end are the ones that will be more affected, if all result in being a farse...)

Now my question: if all the ones that will go to the test fail miserably, and there is no way to determine that the differences exist by them (or by you) in that test, my question is: will the believers stop??? Of course not, they will still be arguing that maybe there was a flaw, or maybe the person involved was not up to the task, or was drunk, or that the setup has this or that, or that they were not familiar with the setup, them usic played was not good enough, etc...any reason for absurd that it looks will be used to keep on the debate, so what is the point then???

There was one test in which a member here sent out three cables to be tested in the comfort of your home, using the setup you are familiar with, so no excuses...the results were totally random...and evne though they found excuses to that!!!

OK, I know that even while the test was supposed to determine which was the silver, cooper, and RS wire, and that IMO is totally personal as to believe which is the better sounding cable, but the fact was that the results was all mixed, therei sn o way that ap errson could conmsider the best sounding cable the RS, other the Silver and other the Canare, being all audiophiles as they claim ot be, there was only one guy who guessed correctly!!! the rest did not hear a **** in the test, were all guessing!!!!

 

[Chu]

As long as people keep recommending cables that cost an arm and a leg, people will keep bringing the topic up. I don't see the recommendations stopping, so the debate will go on.

This forum is rare in that I'm betting the majority of people who sign up are not into high-fi audio as we know it, this is their gateway drug so to speak. As such a lot of the time the cable debate comes around again it's because someone genuinely is asking about information that goes into its realm, an the whole debate starts anew.

 

[markl]

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As long as people keep recommending cables that cost an arm and a leg, people will keep bringing the topic up.

Wrong. As long as folks continue to butt into threads where the poster is requesting specific cable recomendations, then yeah, this crap will go on and on. Bringing in the whole cables are bunk arguments is OT in a thread like that, or threads where the poster wants to share opinions of this or that cable he's trying, or this or that tweak. I don't see them re-starting the debate, it's the nay-sayers who butt in and bring it up again and again.

It's like walking up to a few people you don't even know, engrossed in a conversation about how much they like the Chicago Bears, and then un-invited, un-asked, butting in to tell them how much you think the Bears suck. It's rude, and uncalled for, and its only purpose is to piss people off and start yet another fight.

 

[spraggih]

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Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I got mine through the people Shure recommend for doing their custom IEM sleeves.

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Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just call up your local hospital. When I was young I had problems with water getting trapped in my ears (the tube between your ears and nose) and had to visit "the vault" several times so they could gauge my hearing The vault would be an interesting place to carry out listening tests. I wonder if they exist out of hospitals.

Thanks and thanks! And for the 1st time I used multi-quote and did not know how it worked. (I kept clicking multi and nothing happened so then I clicked quote and it worked!)

 

[Riboge]

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Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif Guys stop arguing about the same. Please understand for a good darn time, that we have been arguing for decades like that, wanna know why? It is very simple, because nobody had supplied the evidences needed to disprove either one of the sides, and until this happen just believe what you want and try to be happy... Just please be considerate with the other field, and do not offend the others, same way we respect politics and religion, we should respect the cables issue, as IMO it is based in the same approach more or less: faith. No evidence, and to me it is a faith, believe and argue all you want, and you are only defending or detracting some kind of a faith...period...

While the balance and benevolence of this admonition is well taken, it is ruined by the one-sidedness and misrepresentation that follows. Both 'faiths' have ways of dismissing unwelcome results not just one of them, and there have been a good number of reports of people passing dbt-type tests of cable differences in Head Fi forums just as there have been reports of failures.

 

[Febs]

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Originally Posted by Riboge /img/forum/go_quote.gif Both 'faiths' have ways of dismissing unwelcome results not just one of them, and there have been a good number of reports of people passing dbt-type tests of cable differences in Head Fi forums just as there have been reports of failures.

Have there really? I can't off the top of my head think of any instances of people passing cable DBT tests--but I also can't off the top of my head think of any instances of people conducting cable DBT tests.

 

[Riboge]

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Originally Posted by markl /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wrong. As long as folks continue to butt into threads where the poster is requesting specific cable recomendations, then yeah, this crap will go on and on. Bringing in the whole cables are bunk arguments is OT in a thread like that, or threads where the poster wants to share opinions of this or that cable he's trying, or this or that tweak. I don't see them re-starting the debate, it's the nay-sayers who butt in and bring it up again and again. It's like walking up to a few people you don't even know, engrossed in a conversation about how much they like the Chicago Bears, and then un-invited, un-asked, butting in to tell them how much you think the Bears suck. It's rude, and uncalled for, and its only purpose is to piss people off and start yet another fight.

Seconded. Your analogy may be understated. It may even be like the butinsky intruding to say that football doesn't really exist and is all just magical thinking. That is why I suggest establishing a skeptic-free forum or some such for those who wish to indulge the scandalous folly of discussing what they hear and don't hear and how they evaluate this without being assaulted...even with some folks version of revealed truth.

 

[vcoheda]

i think a lot of this discussion and even this challenge (regardless of its outcome - and if it even happens, which i doubt) will not change anything. if you really want to know whether there are differences between cables or whether more expensive cables sound better, then buy (borrow) a pair and find out for yourself - for in the end, since it's your system and your ears and your money that is the only thing that matters.

i personally have heard differences among my cables (and often improvements) and will continue to experiment/move up the chain until i can no longer find any differences or until those differences do not warrant the expense.

 

[Riboge]

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Originally Posted by Febs /img/forum/go_quote.gif Have there really? I can't off the top of my head think of any instances of people passing cable DBT tests--but I also can't off the top of my head think of any instances of people conducting cable DBT tests.

What I said was dbt-type tests. What I recall are reports of what I guess are blind abx tests and of some hifi groups conducting that sort of thing among themselves and getting well better than guessing results for the group. The limits of the method are not hard to identify, especially the second blind, but they are good indications that people may well have heard differences over multiple trials and with pretty good control and monitoring. Not proof, certainly, but fairly persuasive to one with an open mind I think.

 

[Sovkiller]

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Originally Posted by Riboge /img/forum/go_quote.gif While the balance and benevolence of this admonition is well taken, it is ruined by the one-sidedness and misrepresentation that follows. Both 'faiths' have ways of dismissing unwelcome results not just one of them, and there have been a good number of reports of people passing dbt-type tests of cable differences in Head Fi forums just as there have been reports of failures.

Even while I consider both as faiths, and I have not misrepresented any of the two, as I'm not even firmly supporter of any of those extreme cases, I have to admit that one has less way of being proved than the other, as you can not prove a negative, at least not in this case....

About the passing of the DBT, sorry but I do not recall any neither, sorry, all what i have read is ridiculous failures, maybe that is why Raine is so consistent in his claims, and so solid in his position...