[Riboge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are variations between what people *can't* hear. Some people have hearing loss. But there isn't a super race of humans with ability to hear things that only bats can hear. When someone says, "No one has golden ears." They're referring to people with no hearing loss, and their point is that no one can hear the unhearable. See ya Steve

Once again you have a point but miss the point. Hearing especially hearing of complex structured sounds like music is not just a matter of the most basic parameters that are measured in a hearing test. There are many levels of processing involved even within the dedicated auditory parts of the brain culminating in the auditory cortex. Then there are the interactions of these at each level with other brain function centers and the rest of the cortical functions. There is a great deal of effect of learning and training above and beyond raw inner ear capability. You can hear a lot of things you formerly couldn't with the right instruction and practice.

This goes on regularly and intentionally when med students work to be able to hear faint heart murmurs and distinguish among them, etc. And as to super capable people, how about one of my professors at med school who was nearly deaf but could usually match what we heard with a stethoscope by looking at the patient's chest from across the room. If he laid his hand on the patient's chest he could outdo us by a great deal and keep up with EKGs pretty well in making diagnoses this way. There's just a lot more to hearing than the basic elements you want to confine your and our consideration to.

There are still many things about what people can do that science has not been able to explain satisfactorily even though it of course should be able to and may eventually. The better and more intelligent the scientist is the more likely he or she is to have no problem acknowledging this without feeling it threatens the scientific endeavor--or means necessarily that those who report them are magical thinkers.

 

[minktoast]

Looks like Blake has withdrawn from the challenge! Another nail in the coffin for expensive cables?

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riboge /img/forum/go_quote.gif Once again you have a point but miss the point. Hearing especially hearing of complex structured sounds like music is not just a matter of the most basic parameters that are measured in a hearing test.

We aren't talking about listening to music and remembering its complex structured sound. We're talking about listening to music and remembering *the subtle (or non existent) difference between one cable and another*. The non-structured sound of a slight difference in sound quality definitely *is* the sort of thing that directly relates to tests measuring auditory memory.

Anyone who is intellectually honest would have to admit that it isn't likely that they would remember minute differences in sound quality for hours or days at a time. The only thing that long stretches of time does is give time for the mind to construct a presumed difference for itself. If you strain long enough to hear a difference, you'll start to hear differences that don't exist.

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by minktoast /img/forum/go_quote.gif Looks like Blake has withdrawn from the challenge! Another nail in the coffin for expensive cables?

SNAKE OIL!

Next Fremer will weasel out of it.

See ya
Steve

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by minktoast /img/forum/go_quote.gif Looks like Blake has withdrawn from the challenge! Another nail in the coffin for expensive cables?

That is a shame, anyone got $7250 to lend Mr Fremer to buy the cables himself ? - I can pitch in $5 - we could start a fund.

Does anyone here have a pair they could lend him ?

 

[Riboge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif "Pretty much" might be the keyword here. We do all hear pretty much the same, compared to, say, a bat which can pick up ultrasonics or a whale who are confused by ELF signals.

What is the point of a statement like this? Yes, from the point of view of a paleontologist or anthropologist this is true from his very zoomed-out perspective. But we--OBVIOUSLY--are zoomed in on the fine points of human hearing, so what is subsumed under "pretty much" is the whole ballgame. From our perspective as audiophiles we definitely do not "all hear the same thing".

 

[Riboge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif We aren't talking about listening to music and remembering its complex structured sound. We're talking about listening to music and remembering *the subtle (or non existent) difference between one cable and another*. The non-structured sound of a slight difference in sound quality definitely *is* the sort of thing that directly relates to tests measuring auditory memory. Anyone who is intellectually honest would have to admit that it isn't likely that they would remember minute differences in sound quality for hours or days at a time. The only thing that long stretches of time does is give time for the mind to construct a presumed difference for itself. If you strain long enough to hear a difference, you'll start to hear differences that don't exist. See ya Steve

Of course you can't remember minute differences in what you mean by sound quality for extended times. Remembering the influence of same on what one hears--in the full, correct meaning of the term-- of a reproduced musical passage is another thing altogether. Such passages take a "long stretch" to play as does the analysis of what is heard at the upper register of hearing in the auditory cortex and informed by accompanying emotions and sensations, past reference points, etc. Yes, this analysis can sharpen this full hearing or can cloud it with confabulation, prejudice, campaigns against audio magazines and ads, ego, mood, etc. That's where the training and discipline come in or don't if it's lacking.

We are just going round and round about this because you stick with the lowest level involved in hearing and many wish to stick with the full extent of what is involved in hearing what we actually listen to.

 

[minktoast]

There's an interesting discussion on their forums.

Here's a quote from a guy who knows Fremer.

Quote:

I've just gotten off the phone with Michael Fremer. I was reading about this story on Gizmodo and was absolutely shocked to see Fremer's name up there - I grew up about 5 minutes from his house and he's very close with my dad. I've been to his home on many occasions. Many times have I marveled at his record collection; more than once have I sat in front of his enormous speaker system and been amazed at the magic it worked on music that I thought sounded good on my paltry 5.1 computer speakers. So naturally, when I saw the Gizmodo article I called him up right away. He had a few choice words to say about Randi that I won't repeat here. But everything I know about Fremer tells me that he's right man for the job. He doesn't do astrology, ESP, or the paranormal; he's as atheist and skeptic as your average forum-goer here. Music is his life and he has invested literally hundreds of thousands of dollars into his sound system. He certainly thinks that audio cables make a difference in audio quality. I can't say I'm anything of an audiophile myself, but I'll believe it if he says it. If you ever had the chance to hear his system, I think you'd agree. Suffice it to say that I'll be very interested in what happens with this challenge.

Surely some Head-fi folks could get together to help him out and encourage him to take the challenge. (I don't believe for one minute that he'd pass but that's just my opinion!)

 

[Vul Kuolun]

Blake is such a wuss.

He's already chickening out, and they didn't even yet define the procedure.
I didn't expect the declaration of bankruptcy this soon.

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by minktoast /img/forum/go_quote.gif Looks like Blake has withdrawn from the challenge!

makes sense for him to use his own cables, since those are the ones he is most familiar with.


Quote:

Another nail in the coffin for expensive cables?

i don't follow.

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riboge /img/forum/go_quote.gif Remembering the influence of same on what one hears--in the full, correct meaning of the term-- of a reproduced musical passage is another thing altogether. Such passages take a "long stretch" to play as does the analysis of what is heard at the upper register of hearing in the auditory cortex and informed by accompanying emotions and sensations, past reference points, etc. Yes, this analysis can sharpen this full hearing or can cloud it with confabulation, prejudice, campaigns against audio magazines and ads, ego, mood, etc. That's where the training and discipline come in or don't if it's lacking.

The point is , is there an audible difference between speaker cables, it matters not one jot what the underlying mechanisms for auditory perception are. What is at question is can a person detect a difference due to different cable, anatomy , physiology, philosophy and so forth are simply not relevant to the test. No wishing to give any kudos to Skinner but in this case it is a black box, there are inputs and outputs and we just dont care what is in the box.

 

[Chu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riboge /img/forum/go_quote.gif What is the point of a statement like this? Yes, from the point of view of a paleontologist or anthropologist this is true from his very zoomed-out perspective. But we--OBVIOUSLY--are zoomed in on the fine points of human hearing, so what is subsumed under "pretty much" is the whole ballgame. From our perspective as audiophiles we definitely do not "all hear the same thing".

I don't think it's obvious. I believe the assumption that audiophiles have better hearing then the average person is one of the biggest myths in hi-fi. That's a whole different topic though . . .

By the way, what is the source of this "auditory memory is only 6 seconds" quote I see all the time? I know certain facets of my auditory memory can be measured in years -- I've gotten a call from a college roomate before and knew instantly who he was even though we haven't spoken in a long time.

I know that I'm probably not the only person who can tell when someone is calling them from their cell or their landline based purely on sound.

I am not claming that the differences between ordinary cables is anywhere within orders of magnitudes of the differences between voices or phones, but that quote really needs some context.

 

[madman91]

I didn't really read all of the responses. But I don't think this test proves anything. If everyone in the world can hear the difference, and you can't, will you buy the 7000$ cables? No. Who cares about sample groups and ceo's and editors and whatnot. Its only YOU that matters.

 

[Puppysmith]

The outcome will be like $2 Chuck winning first place among the Chardonnays of California.

Two-Buck Chuck Wins

 

[JadeEast]

Well I'm going to boycott Pear cables for pulling out of the challenge.