AUDIO over IP - REDNET 3 & 16 Review. AES67 Sets A New Standard for Computer Audio
Jul 27, 2016 at 10:35 PM Post #1,231 of 3,694
An observation of USB vs AOIP.
 
USB is convenient, near universal, and 'inexpensive' to implement.
I mean you can go to target or malmart or staples (etc.) and get a perfectly usable USB cable.
And if you think that the $14.95 cable MUST be better, well, because that $8.49 cable, just can't be that good, Can It?
For many this is more than enough.
You get to play your music with little fuss nor muss.
 
BUT,
USB was never designed nor meant to handle streaming, nor audio, let alone AudioPhoolerly levels of performance.
It's for keyboards and mice and printers etc.
 
AOIP is just about a perfect opposite.
It's fussy to an extreme, obscure, and expensive.
 
Even music stores that sell to pro audio guys usually don't know much about AOIP, nor networked audio (there are exceptions, especially online).
It certainly isn't mainstream, nor much embraced even by those with a technical bent.
 
And the thing is Digital Audio is just as susceptible to 'external and unwanted influences' as tweako analog is, perhaps even more so, especially while using USB, and in ways that we are just now ferreting out.
That is why there has been a steady increase in USB 'fixer devices' of all sorts types, natures and extremes ever since the Wyrd Schiit surfaced.
And the proliferation of the number of these devices doing pretty much the same thing (cleaning up the signal coming from the player's hardware (computer)) AND that using multiples of them in series also helped, was a clear indication that troubles lurk just under the surface while using USB for streaming digital audio.
 
AND that using this same tactic, even in an AOIP setup results in 'Better' SQ, just points to the "susceptible to 'external and unwanted influences'" that exists in all of digital audio.
And this too, we are ferreting out, meaning we are finding those specific technical aspects that contribute, in a major way, to 'Better' SQ in the digital realm.
 
So why AOIP?
It's 'Better' from a SQ perspective in every way I use to describe 'Better'.
 
The first time I heard about it was from Musiqboy who just started raving and then brought up the topic in RB2013's thread from where it started getting more attention.
It really hasn't stopped, but there are more and more who are leaving USB audio and all of these 'fixer devices' (DDC's, bare boards, tweako clocks, and a mess of wires on their desk…),
behind and not looking back.
 
All because the techno stuff is cool and all but that's not what this is all about.
 
It IS about a step up in SQ and for some a Giant step up in SQ.
As Musiqboys sez
"USB AIN't GOT NOTHIN' ON AOIP!!!"
 
And I agree 1001%
 
And yeah right now its sorta 'rough around the edges' and expensive and fussy to get working 'properly', but for some those quirks are just the what ya gotta do to make it happen.
And we are early in this unfolding of AOIP as a replacement/substitute/improvement for USB Audio.
 
JJ
 
Jul 28, 2016 at 1:49 AM Post #1,233 of 3,694
  I've been having trouble getting the DVS to work with Jplay. Finally, I decided to change the encoding to 32bit. Then it started to play. This whole time I've had it set to 16 with no issues because I thought that's what it should be. I did a thread search and see that some folks kind of knew that, but it's not clear why. I guess Jplay processes at 32bits?

 
Thanks for the tip. I never really even thought about Jplay in addition to the Dante Virtual Soundcard (why add another layer of sw?) but I changed the encoding to 32 and yes, it does indeed work. It's another option for those who already have Jplay.
 
Jul 28, 2016 at 6:13 AM Post #1,234 of 3,694
 
  For those of you who own a Mutec MC3+ USB there is a firmware update available for it on the Mutec website.
   
  Hopefully not too off topic since I know several of you use one with your REDnet units...

 


I thought I had read somewhere that this update improves the sound quality of the MC-3+ USB, but the firmware update description only lists functional improvements.

Does anyone know anything more as regards the update and improved sound quality?

 
Comments on CA by Julian from Mutec gave the impression that there would be SQ improvements also. I hope to find out for myself today :)
 
Jul 28, 2016 at 7:12 AM Post #1,235 of 3,694
Mutec MC3+ Smart Clock USB FW Update 1.10

Comments on CA by Julian from Mutec gave the impression that there would be SQ improvements also. I hope to find out for myself today :)


Hi all,

I do have the newest version with the updated firmware with me already some weeks for beta testing. I can confirm that there is a recognizable raise in sq. I could recognized that by more details and clearer stage front to back for example. I can't comment on the changes with the firmware more than published by Mutec because of non disclosure agreement but understand the reason of what I am hearing and measuring. More feedback from other users will support that impression for sure. Mutec decided to stay silebt about details for business reasons and I fully understand that.

I did test quite intense with different setups including F-1, RME ADi-2, RME UCX and T+A Dac 8. I promissed Mr. Peters not to publish anything before the official launch, should be able to share the test in a while. For the moment just that: In nearly every position within the chain the MC3+ USB improved SQ. But the differences in sq changes where I integrated it in the chain where quite interesting.

With regard to the topic of this thread I can confirm that the combination F-1 > SPdif > MC3+ USB produces better sq than any of them alone.

So finally I made it to get on topic :wink:

Take care
Thomas
 
Jul 28, 2016 at 10:42 AM Post #1,236 of 3,694
A little feedback on using the Grimm Cc1 Master clock.

First remark:
The CC1 is still new and cold out of the box. Arrived only today.
The Mutec MC3+USB has been running for over a month, nearly continuously and has always been on the new firmware 1.10 so I don't know the old firmware.

Observations:
1. I prefer Mutec SPDIF reclock over the Grimm SPDIF reclock. Mutec shows mored detailed/controled bass lines.
2. Mutec behind Rednet D16, is enhanced greatly by using Grimm as an external Master clock on the Mutec instead of Mutec's internal clocking mechanism. Greater clarity, music a bit more forward, enhanced perceived loudness (thus lower noise floor), lower lows with even more control of bass details. This is definitely the best setup.

Still to do:
a. Add Grimm as external Master clock on the Rednet D16. Need a second BNC cable for that. Will receive two Oyaide silver BNC cables tomorow, so both devices will be receiving clock signals over exactly the same length and spec-ed cables.

b. Let the Grimm CC1 run for many, many hours to get a proper burn in, and then test the above observations again.

Glad to have the Grimm in the setup :biggrin: :atsmile:

Cheers
 
Jul 28, 2016 at 11:12 AM Post #1,237 of 3,694
A little feedback on using the Grimm Cc1 Master clock....

.... Let the Grimm CC1 run for many, many hours to get a proper burn in, and then test the above observations again.

Glad to have the Grimm in the setup
biggrin.gif
atsmile.gif


Cheers

 
Thanks for this Grimm tale :)
 
Looking forward to more as it cooks...
 
Oops. Sounds like Hansel and Gretel!
 
My Antelope is getting better with a little cooking also...
 
Jul 28, 2016 at 12:27 PM Post #1,238 of 3,694
   
Thanks for this Grimm tale :)
 
Looking forward to more as it cooks...
 
Oops. Sounds like Hansel and Gretel!
 
My Antelope is getting better with a little cooking also...


I have just received my R-core 18v LPS it sounds like a improvement to the SQ need some more burn in time . I am waiting to here if anyone tried the Antelope or any other world clock
only without a SPDIF Re-clock. This information is helpful to all the people sitting on the fence . The RN3 and external clock is a two grand set up do you need to break out another thousand ?
 
Jul 28, 2016 at 12:58 PM Post #1,239 of 3,694
 
I have just received my R-core 18v LPS it sounds like a improvement to the SQ need some more burn in time . I am waiting to here if anyone tried the Antelope or any other world clock
only without a SPDIF Re-clock. This information is helpful to all the people sitting on the fence . The RN3 and external clock is a two grand set up do you need to break out another thousand ?

What is the LPS powering?
 
Joel
 
Jul 29, 2016 at 1:53 PM Post #1,241 of 3,694
Thanks for the reply enginedr.
 
On a separate note, I'd be curious to hear from everyone who uses a Rednet 3 or D16 who has made an improvement upstream of the device (ethernet cable, s/w player, improved server, LPS on server/SSD/etc.) who has noted an improvement in their sound.
 
Joel
 
Jul 29, 2016 at 2:41 PM Post #1,242 of 3,694
Thanks for the reply enginedr.

On a separate note, I'd be curious to hear from everyone who uses a Rednet 3 or D16 who has made an improvement upstream of the device (ethernet cable, s/w player, improved server, LPS on server/SSD/etc.) who has noted an improvement in their sound.

Joel


None whatsoever as long as it doesn't influence the bits.
The thing I did notice giving a big improvement, was using Sox SRC for upsampling to 192kHz instead of other SRC software. But obviously this does influence the bits that are actually sent to the D16
 
Jul 29, 2016 at 3:07 PM Post #1,243 of 3,694
None whatsoever as long as it doesn't influence the bits.
The thing I did notice giving a big improvement, was using Sox SRC for upsampling to 192kHz instead of other SRC software. But obviously this does influence the bits that are actually sent to the D16

+1 for SoX in JRMC v22.
 
I upgraded Audiophile Optimizer to v2.0 but feel it is no longer necessary.
 
Added TP-Link optical cable for the ethernet port on my server that goes to my LAN last night but have not had time to listen yet. As it is mainly for reducing noise I am not holding out much hope. AOIP seems to make a lot of our up-stream tweaks unnecessary. I may even put the SMPS brick back for my PC just to see...
 
Jul 29, 2016 at 3:32 PM Post #1,244 of 3,694
  Thanks for the reply enginedr.
 
On a separate note, I'd be curious to hear from everyone who uses a Rednet 3 or D16 who has made an improvement upstream of the device (ethernet cable, s/w player, improved server, LPS on server/SSD/etc.) who has noted an improvement in their sound.
 
Joel 

 
I feel I am a broken record on this issue. Not saying upstream items don't make a difference but what I am hearing has much less impact than what I experienced on USB set-up. External clock (Antelope) and especially Mutec reclocking are the two "tweaks" that were most meaningful and which I would recommend. It can be tough to break old habits but with AOIP I'm not constantly in search of the next accessory level upgrade.
 
Jul 29, 2016 at 4:14 PM Post #1,245 of 3,694
   
I feel I am a broken record on this issue. Not saying upstream items don't make a difference but what I am hearing has much less impact than what I experienced on USB set-up. External clock (Antelope) and especially Mutec reclocking are the two "tweaks" that were most meaningful and which I would recommend. It can be tough to break old habits but with AOIP I'm not constantly in search of the next accessory level upgrade.


My chain is a 2014 Mac Mini  for player software I am using Channel D audio Pure Music and I tunes - Dante VSC to Red Net 3 with a Antelope audio Live clock patched in with 2 Carne BNC cables
The Antelope is the master clock . Out  of the RN3 s coax SPDIF I am using a Mad Scientist 1 m carbon fiber SPDIF cable to my Metrum Octave NOS DAC .I have the player set to up sample
to 92khz  all of my music is 44.1 Redbook in lossless format . I just added a Zero Zone 18 v LPS with a R-core transformer for the power on the Live clock it was a nice improvement .
This combo sounds so good I am just going to enjoy it as is for now .    
 

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