bluet0ps
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Just out of curiosity, how would you compare the sq of x3 with RB vs other daps like x10, fiio x1, 2,3 and later variants)?
Rockbox Xduoo X3
- Thread starter red71rum
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Slater
Headphoneus Supremus
From what I have read so far, the X3 > X10 as far as sound quality. Although I would much prefer a click wheel like on the iPod, some FiiOs, and the X10. It's unfortunate that the X10 click wheel is supposedly pretty crappy.
I think when you factor in the cost-value ratio of the X3 vs the others you listed, plus the features others lack (such as dual cards, ability to run Rockbox, etc), the others you listed would need to sound absolutely stellar in comparison to justify 3-7xs the cost.
Keep in mind that they pretty much all have EQs and a slew of settings, allowing you to tune the sound any way you want. When you look at it that way, they all have the ability to have the 'same sound quality' in theory (ignoring any differences in output power, distortion, SNR, etc).
bluet0ps
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Thanks slaterlovesspam! Factor in this active rockbox development and we have a sure winner.
fredhubbard2
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this is not strictly true, they will possibly still sound different no matter how you tweak the EQ although you might achieve an approximate similarity - different components and implementation innit.
I have recently took ownership of an AGPtek H1, its sound quality is on another level compared to xDuoo X3 (as much as I love it) , and no amount of rockbox EQ tweaking will get it to sound the same.
Slater
Headphoneus Supremus
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the Xduoo X3 was "as good" or "the same" as any other player. There's certainly no comparison between the X3 and higher-end players that are in another league, such as Astell and Kern AK380, HiFiMAN HM-901, Altmann Tera-Player, etc.
I agree that unique hardware architecture in the amplification design, op-amps, DAC chip, etc can and does color the sound from player to player. And the sound is also influenced by how well player X matches his headphones in power output and impedance, use of an analog volume knob vs digital volume implementation, component balancing & matching, and the type/quality/brand/accuracy of discrete components that effect line noise, jitter, distortion, SNR, etc.
But the DAPs in BLUET0P's LIST use a very similar basic overall architecture. When you boil it down to the players IN BLUET0P's LIST, I'd argue that MUCH of the sound differences are basically due to the particular DAC and Op-Amps used. I'm basing this on the experience reported by owners of the FiiO E12 DIY headphone amp, where given the same hardware, the only changing variables are Op-Amps & buffers.
But I feel that comparing the Xduoo X3 to an equivalent FiiO DAP is like saying which is 'better' - a 4-door Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla? Despite the answer being extremely subjective, they two are so close you really have to consider other ways to evaluate overall differences - ergonomics, minor feature differences, UI, appearance, brand reputation, dealer support, price, etc. What about comparing a Honda Civic and a Tesla Model S? There's no comparison, despite both having 4-doors and being able to get you from A to B.
The X10 uses slightly different internal components as the X3. Reports are that they sound close, but slightly different. Because they have different DACs and Op Amps, they'll never sound exactly "the same". But can they be made to sound close enough to one another? Based on my testing with the iPod and X3, I believe so. I'll be able to personally back that claim up myself if/when Rockbox is ported to the X10. Ignoring the interface and outward appearance differences between the X3 and X10, and concentrating strictly on sound, is the X10 worth 2.5xs the price of the X3? That's up to each individual, but not to me at the X10's current price.
There's much more available (in Rockbox) to tune the sound than just the EQ. There's a slew of other sound settings such as crossover, stereo width, gain, frequency cutoffs, center frequencies, dithering, compression, etc. I have played with most of the settings, and without any EQ changes whatsoever, changing those settings has a huge effect on the sound.
I was curious to try an apples and apples hardware comparison myself (ignoring interface, and ruling out software/UI differences by only looking at Rockbox). So I finally got around to Rockboxing my iPod Classic 5.5. I initially configured Rockbox's settings identical between the iPod and Xduoo X3. Using the same song/bitrate/format, the sound of the iPod is definitely a bit different when compared to the X3. However, I was able to make minor tweaks to the settings of each DAP to the point where I was no longer able to tell the difference between them when blind A/Bing (my daughter would randomly plug in 1 or the other player behind my back and I would try and tell which one was which).
In the end, what's universally recommended as the best way for bluet0p to answer the question in a subjective situation like this, is for bluet0p to go to a meet or retailer and demo the units on the list in person. That's the only way to really know for sure, because bluet0p's ears are different than yours or mine.
My original comment was more intended to provide reassurance that given the slew of settings available in Rockbox on the X3, bluet0p would be able to tweak and tune the sound to his/her liking using the dizzying amount of settings available in Rockbox. I didn't mean for it to come across as a definitive fact.
fredhubbard2
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Lol fair enough. however i'll still stand by my comment that my H1 a similarly priced DAP to my xDuoo X3 sounds far superior (detail, clarity, soundstage) that no amount of twiddling in rockbox can match.
Slater
Headphoneus Supremus
That's quite interesting. I'd be interested in checking one out someday. I assume you got yours used, as they aren't produced anymore?
fredhubbard2
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Slater
Headphoneus Supremus
I like the looks of it - the layout appears very logical, has a click wheel, color screen, nice battery life, and analog volume knob. Very nice.
The specs say it takes a 64GB max card. You haven't by any chance tried anything larger, formatted with a FAT32 utility?
In my experience, most devices that say a max of 16/32/64 still work fine with a larger card formatted as FAT32. I'm running a 128GB card in my dash cam as well as some Bluedio T3+ headphones, and both were only spec'd as taking a 32GB card max.
On a side note, the AGPtEK A12 sure looks an awwwful lot like a Sansa Clip+, has very similar size & specs, with only the location of a few components like the SD slot switched around. A common tactic for Chinese clone products to dodge IP laws. Since the Sansa Clip+ is hard to find now (and stupid overpriced), I wonder if the AGPtEK A12 can run the Sansa Clip+ implementation of Rockbox?
Brian Coffey
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Has anyone here tried the Trinity PM4 with Xudoo X3 and if so soundwise what were the results?
bluet0ps
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Thanks for all your replies. Another question though, how is the rockbox experience with the x3 compared to rb in ipod classic? With the ipod i met occasional freezing, especially that i organize and transfer files via itunes and not just the simple drag and drop which is also supported by rockbox. On the same subject, how does the rb/x3 handle 2 128gb sdcard with morethan 20k mp3/aac files and a few more gigs of flacs? Thanks.
Slater
Headphoneus Supremus
Rockbox on the X3 occasionally freezes too. It's not very often, and certainly not worth using because of the occasional hiccup. You can do things to minimize the freezing on the X3 (especially with 20k files), such as turning off directory caching, using a quality microsd card, making sure the card is a god speed and is free of corruption, and waiting 45-60 seconds after startup before browsing for files (you can play/resume right away though). When it does freeze, the X3 reboots in a few seconds via a small reset button and a paper clip, bobby pin, mechanical pencil, etc.
Obviously as time progresses, the X3 port gets better and better, correcting bugs and further reducing the occasional lockups.
On the microsd cards, all cards must be formatted FAT32 with 4k blocks. (2) cards can be installed, up to 256GB each (for a total of 512GB).
20k files is no problem, as are flacs. When using that many files, you'll need to set the max file setting to something higher than your max to optimize things (in the case of 20k files, I would set it to 25k).
The rockbox experience on the X3 in virtually identical to the iPod. The settings are all basically the same, although there are a few very obscure settings on the iPod that aren't on the X3. The major thing you won't have on the X3 vs the iPod is a color screen, cover flow, and the click wheel. The X3 has a monochrome OLED screen, and you use individual push buttons to navigate the Rockbox menus. It;s not as slick as the click wheel, but it is very intuitive and easy to use on the X3.
To manage the music on the X3, it is highly recommended to remove the microsd cards and use them in a usb reader attached to the computer. You can technically attach the X3 to the computer via usb and 'drag and drop', but it much slower, and not very reliable. With a usb reader there are no issues, and the cards pop out and go back into the X3 in a matter of seconds. I use a USB 3 reader on my cards.
Another nice thing about Rockbox on the X3 is there is dual boot OS capability, where you can boot the X3 to Rockbox or the stock firmware (if you wish) at any time.
Let us know if you have any other questions we can help answer.
bluet0ps
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slaterlovesspam,
Thank you so much. I was trying to decide between the x3 and the fiio x3ii. Likewise, I'll be coming from an LG v10 and ip5s which are already good sounding, hence, i am expecting my next dap to sound better than my current dap/smartphones.
Thank you so much. I was trying to decide between the x3 and the fiio x3ii. Likewise, I'll be coming from an LG v10 and ip5s which are already good sounding, hence, i am expecting my next dap to sound better than my current dap/smartphones.
AudiophileDuhan
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Can this player act as USB input device (media controller) like on my keyboard, with "USB HID" mode on?
I searched the internet and found that Rockbox supports this.
I searched the internet and found that Rockbox supports this.
Slater
Headphoneus Supremus
No problem.
I don't have a FiiO X3, but I have heard one before and remember thinking it was decent. I felt the UI was kind of clunky though, and I don't know if FiiO has made any improvements to the UI or not. I have heard better things about the FiiO X5 though.
Anyways, I have since become accustomed to Rockbox on the X3, and while overwhelming at first, I have come to love its clean interface and plethora of customization options. The fact that you are coming from RB on the iPod will benefit you greatly - you'll feel right at home, as long as you accept the loss of the color screen and the click wheel. The X10 has a color screen and click wheel though, so it is more of a direct comparison to the FiiOs (although I haven't seen or heard an X10 in person yet).
There is a discussion of the Fiio X3 and Xduoo X3 here that may be helpful: http://www.head-fi.org/t/782912/xduoo-x3-dsd-24bit-192khz-cs4398-chip-lossless-music-player/15#post_11966282
Also, like you I have an iPod 5.5 Classic, with Rockbox, so I can directly comment that the sound is head and shoulders better on the X3. Battery life is better on the iPod, but at 8-10 hours on the X3 it's no slouch either. Most of these DAPs don't have killer battery life because of the amplification capabilities. There's no way to cheat physics.
Now, what's the bottom line? Well, the xduoo X3 isn't perfect. The stock firmware sucks, and isn't actively developed by xduoo, so you pretty much have to run Rockbox. Rockbox on the X3 isn't an "official" Rockbox port; it's modified Sansa Clip+ code, maintained solely by a very generous Head-Fi member. If he gets hit by a meteor, eaten by a shark, or decides to get rid of his X3, active development will likely stop. Warranty support from xduoo in the US is pretty non-existent without shipping back to China. I wish it had a clickwheel. The screen is monotone, kind of small, and it's hard to read in bright sunlight. There's no touch screen, and it's an odd shape that's difficult to stack cleanly with portable amps. There's also a quirky 'click' when playing 44.1k mixed with 48k bitrate files when using the auto-bitrate setting, but it's seeming like a Rockbox thing that will hopefully be fixed in the future. And there's a limitation on the true resolution supported by the DAC chip when running Rockbox (ie 24-bit files get downsampled very slightly, lower than the true advertised maximum of '24-bit'). Some of those shortcoming can be addressed to some extent however - the 44.1 to 48k file thing is addressed by setting the automatic bitrate setting to AUTOMATIC and just dealing with the clicks. As far as the odd overall size, I made my own case that improves its stackability. And with the screen-in-the-sun thing, there's at least 1 user who replaced the stock smoked window with a clear one, making the screen brightness way better. Another user even replaced his screen with a totally different spec'd screen.
There's no denying - the X3 is a budget DAP, but it's many times better than a Sansa Clip or Rockboxed iPod. It's clean sounding, built like a tank, low noise, and has pretty good hardware internally. Is it some perfect magic unicorn? No. Are there better players available? Of course, but there's no perfect DAP - they all have quirks and shortcomings of one type or another, even those that are better sounding than the X3. But at $70 on sale, the value it provides is hard to beat. I don't regret buying mine for a second, and I plan on using it for many years until it craps out. But like all technology, from cell phones to TVs, when something better comes along for an affordable price (especially one that supports Rockbox), I'll replace the X3 (just like I did with the Sansa Clip+ and 3 different iPods through the years).
Hope that helps,
- Slater
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