Drivers aren't that expensive, you know. Usually the greatest cost is the cabinet. Crossover parts are often more expensive than the drivers when you diy and get good parts. The tweeter in the speaker I'm building is arguably the best dome tweeter bar none, and it's only $180 for a matched +/- 0.5db pair. Normal scans and seas type drivers are typically less than $100 each unless you're talking about subwoofers with massive cast frames and motors. You won't see any of these woofers in any commercial offering until you get near or past $2000. You won't see premium crossover parts - ever - in a commercial design, and when you use them in diy kits, it gets pricy REAL fast. But since even the best commercial designers don't use them, you can probably skimp there. Even Wilson speakers use run of the mill scan speaks, etc. Nothing special. There are also other good drivers in the world outside of the danish ones Cabinets are usually at least $500+ in an expensive kit. Building the cabinet yourself takes it down to $50 worth of mdf at most (maybe more if you're making a line array,) + bits and odds depending on veneer etc.

The dayton drivers are definitely budget but definitely bang for buck. When you're on a budget, it's NOT a bad place to look. The dayton woofer was chosen because 1) it's cheap, and 2) it does great bass, which is one of his main criteria. As diy'ers know, better cheap drivers and a good crossover than expensive drivers and a cheap crossover. At $150 not including the cabinet, you can get peerless (danish! )woofers and northcreek tweeters, no problem. Or there's another design around $230 minus cabinet that will match gr-research's m130 woofer to a bg planar neo 3 electrostat tweeter. There's good stuff to be had for cheap, that's for sure. You won't find stuff of this quality anywhere near the price commercially until you go used.

Here's a link to some basic reasons why to diy: http://ellisaudio.com/whydiy.htm
Here's one on xover components: http://ellisaudio.com/CrossoverComponents.htm
Dave Ellis has a bunch of interesting articles.

Honestly with 300.00 I will not look any other place than Axioms, for 300.00 you will not go far better, not even DIY....titanium tweaters, aluminum woofer, natural crossover, nice cabinets. What the heck? And 30 days to try them

NM.

I've been talking with Brian Bunge at Rutledge Audio Design in Georgia. This is a small operation and I don't think they do this full time. They generally build speakers on order although to specific designs they have already developed.

I was in a situation where I needed the smallest speakers possible and I found the RAD Micros. They usually sell for $200 a pair but Brian has some that are already made with a previous design. When I called him to ask about the speakers we ended up chatting for close to half an hour about audio.

Now, keep in mind that for $100 each you're not getting audiophile in the true sense of the word. The speaker is a single driver and will not give you really deep bass. However, he is developing a nice subwoofer that will be in the neighborhood of $300-$350 and will go pretty low. What I like about the speaker though is that it isn't made of plastic, like so many small ones are. The cabinets are medium density fiberboard (MDF) with real wood veneers.

I have not received these speakers yet and have no idea how they sound. I figure for $200 if they don't sound like a boombox I'll be happy, and if they sound halfway decent I might just have Brian make me a sub.

Now I don't know if they will ship to Europe and even if they do the cost may be prohibitive, but then again you never know.

If you're at all interested the website is http://www.rutledgeaudiodesign.com/index.htm

I found out about the RAD Micros from this other thread I posted about a week ago. Check it out: http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showt...light=speakers

I'd be interested in hearing how those full range drivers sound. True point source must image pretty well, eh? No crossover to get in the way either. Perfect phase integration and everything Happy to hear you took the plunge on the micros. Be sure to let us know how they sound. You got the pair with the spring clips right?

Btw, don't go for these if you want bass for $200

Yeah, I ordered the spring loaded ones so they only cost $150 + shipping. Thanks for pointing me in that direction.

Not expecting a lot but after talking with Brian awhile I get the feeling he puts a lot of thought into building these things. He told me he played around with the Micros a bit with the newer designs adding in a filter (additional resistors, I guess). It seems he found the midrange a bit harsh at high volume and wanted to tame it down a little. Mine don't have the filtering but I'm not worried. With a wife and little babies around I won't be turning my amp much past 10:00 anyway.

I'll be sure to post some impressions.

Gee, you guys are so quick to discount due to price. What about these:

http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/pr...ack%20-%20Each

First of all, don't let anyone discourage you based on your budget. Your budget is your budget, end of story. This is a very personal matter and will remain so even if in the future it expands to allow you to put $200k speakers in your bedroom! The nice thing about this hobby (audio, in general) is that there are a million and one options. As some have suggested, there may be DIY projects that will allow you to put together amazingly good speakers for 200 Euro (about US$250). I don't know what to suggest in the DIY category but know that there would be many options worth considering.

Brands like Mission, Axiom and Triangle have all been mentioned, and these were the ones that came to my mind as well. Some years ago, I bought a pair of Mission 780's bookshelf speakers (in a stunningly beautiful Rosewood color) that cost about US$400 used, but they would probably be much less expensive now. These are phenomenal little speakers, and do not lack in the bottom end at all. Sure, they're not on par with full range speakers costing 10 times as much, but they definitely can fill a small room with a smooth, even and natural sound. If anything, they tend to be a bit on the 'lush' side and mate well with tube amplification. I just checked Audiogon, and there is a pair of Mission 701's listed for US$245 (not the same model as the 780's which I can personally recommend, but similar). This is not to promote one particular speaker (or even brand) but to demonstrate that good values are out there. BTW, those 780's are now being used as surround speakers in a small 5.1 system that features Bohlender Graebener ribbon speakers for the fronts and center, and surprisingly, they can keep up very well with the quickness of the ribbons.

With your bugdet you are not really too far away from a used pair of Magenepan MMG's (figure about US$400, and sometimes even US$350), and now we're definitely talking 'audiophile' sound. For your application, I really wouldn't recommned these because 1) they take up a lot of space 2) they require a bit of an investment in amplification because they are inefficient, hard to drive, speakers and 3) where they lack is in the bottom end which is what you want the most. My point of bringing the MMG's up in this discussion, however, is that these are wonderful speakers that resolve details like you would never believe, and they are not far out of your budget!

The JMLab speakers are very, very good. I picked up a pair of the chorus 706 speakers for $225 new. Their entry level speaker, the chorus 705 was selling for under $200 at the time. These two have been superseded by the chorus S and were being closed out. Look for a speaker thats being discontinued or updated. This is where you can really get some good deals. I highly recommend JMLab as they do everything well. I havent heard a JMLab speaker that didnt sound much better than you would expect for their price.

aha thanks for your replies, but now with all the recomendations I'm even more confused...
1. of course by "audiophile" I mean something that is the closest to audiophile sound for the price... I know that miracles won't happen for 200 euros but I just want the best I could get for the money.

2. this DIY thing has got me thinking too... first of all, I don't undesrtand why you guys consider MDF panels to be so expensive, I could get it at my local DIY store for very cheap (but maybe it needs to have a certain density/ quality?)

3. I don't really mind buying used, after all it's just a speaker, not much could go wrong, right?

4. regarding the crossovers if I go for DIY... if I have a 4 channel amp, then I could biwire them without needing to go for a crossover at all, right? I thought nothing beat biwiring, not even the best crossovers?

5. yeah a few specs: I have a JVC MCA-V5E integrated amp, got it used for not much, I think it can do 100W per channel in 2-channel mode and 50W per channel in 4 channel-mode. And my room if pretty small with a lot of furniture in it, so I don't have much choice in where i could place the speakers...

6. oh and I just thought... since car subs can go on eBay for pretty low prices compared with subs for home use (like this one for example http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI...e=STRK:MEWA:IT ), couldn't I somehow adapt one for home use? I mean, a sub's a sub, right?

7. and just to emphasize that I'm a total bass freak, bass is like a drug for me when listening to music

MDF is really cheap. When you want someone to build you a cabinet, that's when it gets expensive. Also, maybe you can buy smaller piece of mdf than we typically can. Here, I only have access to large sheets of mdf that are easily enough wood for 3-5 pairs of speakers and it sells for around $25-30 a sheet.

Bi-wiring/biamping has nothing much to do with crossovers except that you can't use it in a series xover. You still need a crossover to biwire. The only time you don't use a crossover is when the designer designed the speaker to work with the natural roll off of the drivers (RARE) or if you use active xovers (pretty expensive, around $1000 for a good marchand one.) Many people and speaker designers don't even like biwiring/biamping and discourage it. There are technical white paper articles written on how and why biwiring/biamping is bad. Biwiring (not biamping,) btw, is an audiophile tweak type trend and most people, let alone engineers and designers, don't believe in it. The only thing for sure is that biamping can give you more power if done correctly.

While I have never heard them, Athena Technologies makes inexpensive loudspeakers that are supposed to sound very nice and have strong bass for their size.


AT Audition AS-F2 Tower Speakers are $399 per pair (brand new) at audioadvisor (regular price is $600). They have dual 8-in woofers with a synthetic silk tweeter.
They are more than three feet tall and have won lots of awards.
http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/pr...ers%20-%20Pair

AT Audition AS-B1 are $179 brand new. They have also won plenty of awards and have bass for there size.
http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/pr...ers%20-%20Pair

Once again I have never heard them personally but from what I have read they are good.

Since you're in Europe, how about the Wharfedale Diamond 8.1/8.2 for $200 US, i'm not sure how many EUR is that. or cheaper, 7.2.

Athena Technology sells a pretty good bookshelf in the BS-1. Can be had for $149 USD @ Best Buy. I think Stereophile gave it a pretty good review. I have heard these personally and they are great for computer use.

ah yes, I've been thinking about Wharfedale as well... I guess I could buy some used ones even cheaper.

But what about my idea with the car sub? you guys think it would be a good idea? frankly I'm amazed by the price difference between a car sub and a home sub... I mean, for the price I could even get 2 and it would still leave some cash for some speakers!

oh and maybe to specify a bit more on the bass thing (since after all, it'll be one of the main qualities I'm looking for...) I like the bass to sound like in a club (I listen mostly to electronic music). The closest I've come to hearing "the club sound" in a home was through a pair of Genelecs a friend owns (the middle range ones, I think the 1030s?)... of course, those are WAY out of my price range... I guess this would be kindof hard to ask, but is there anything in my price range which could get close to that Genelec sound?

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I guess you mean they are built with relatively inexpensive materials and parts, not that they necessary sound like crap. You might have meant that but I'm not sure. I would comment that certainly for $200 you can get speaker parts (e.g. drivers, crossovers, housing) with higher specs than the specs of the parts you get in general from a $200 new speaker. But putting them together, and expecting the sound to be proportionately better as the parts are supposed to be independently, would be quite naive.

Of course I'm biased because I own Paradigm Titans and Atoms and CC-170. I bought them knowing how they were built, since I had done my research and had seen the pics online in detail. I couldn't care less, I simply heard them at the store and they sounded great for the money. The signature of one headfier (I can't remember right now who) couldn't be more opportune: "if it sounds good, it is good."

The dissapointment of the writer of some comments in one of the links posted here, being very dissapointed after "seeing" the interior of a Paradigm CC-150 is quite thought provoking. So the speaker suddenly started sounding "worse" after he knew how it was built? It was ok before, so much so that he purchased it, but then opening it he wasn't happy about their sound anymore? Talk about placebo.

Good engineering and expensive parts are different things. A speaker built like a tank and using parts with the highest specs won't necessarily be a great performer. Not to be dogmatic about those statements, but just adding them to this soup of opinions and general points of view.