stereocilia said:

"It still sounds and images like a dynamic headphone driver" this is an excellent point! https://www.audeze.com/technology/tech-tour/planar-magnetics-overview

Dynamics and Planar sound different, I agree that planar tech has significant advantages over dynamics in all areas except one. Planar headphones don't disappear, I am constantly aware of the plane or

magnetic diaphragm, the wall one inch away from my ear. Good dynamic cans are tuned with air holes front and back (take Grado for example) its all pressure tuned and the air wave gives a little. I prefer the relaxed air wave of dynamics over the tight plane of a magnetic diaphragm. The planar perception is that air has nowhere to go, this quickly turns into fatigue, while dynamics have more air wave suspension if that makes sense?​

Long live dynamic            ​

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I have to disagree completely. While the Dt880 isn't perfectly neutral it still sounds good, it doesnt disappear though and the Alpha Dog has better imaging and shows me more source material no matter how quiet the room is.

I feel like dynamics (excluding the TOTL) ones have shortcomings when the musical passages get really busy, I find better instrument separation where things get complicated you can't hear certain details as well while the planars have better control. Comes down to musical preference. If you are listening to neo-soul hip hop beats from the Weeknd then the dynamics are going to struggle to give you superior bass while retaining control in the rest of the frequencies. If listening to classical one might prefer the airiness of the DT880 or watching a movie because the DT880 lends air to the recording that isn't there. The Alpha Dog on then other hand gives me a "room-feel" and doesn't sound good with bad YouTube movies or poorly mastered music because it lends very little to the soundstage. The Dt880 glances over poorly mastered soundstages while still making good recordings sound like they should, once again this is just one of the many mid-fi headphones I have heard and currently own. I just struggle to see how a dynamic will have the same kind of control as the mid to upper fi planers.

Soon as I get out of class I could give you a full list of songs that dynamics won't be able to handle.

The HD 800 has already reached legendary status, how long has it been? Six years, the HD 800 is sensitive to cable tweaks, the stock cable on HD 800 sounds dull on the low end and tips the sound towards bright on high freq. The HD 800 takes dynamic drivers to a new level of resolution. The HD 800 is a benchmark is that regard.
 
Planar design has not eclipsed dynamic design although it might seem that way now. The Nighthawk is incorporating biomimicry into the design. HiFiMAN is using nano tech materials. this is a new and promising day for the head-fi world.
 
The age of graphene and nano tech biomimicry is here...imagine what bullet proof graphene drivers, a few molecules thick with gold nano wires will sound like? Far fetched? no way science fiction is becoming science fact

stereocilia said:

The HD 800 has already reached legendary status, how long has it been? Six years, the HD 800 is sensitive to cable tweaks, the stock cable on HD 800 sounds dull on the low end and tips the sound towards bright on high freq. The HD 800 takes dynamic drivers to a new level of resolution. The HD 800 is a benchmark is that regard.

Planar design has not eclipsed dynamic design although it might seem that way now. The Nighthawk is incorporating biomimicry into the design. HiFiMAN is using nano tech materials. this is a new and promising day for the head-fi world.

The age of graphene and nano tech biomimicry is here...imagine what bullet proof graphene drivers, a few molecules thick with gold nano wires will sound like? Far fetched? no way science fiction is becoming science fact

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Have you heard the HE-1000 for yourself? Some people didn't like it as much as the LCD-3F or Ether. Nano tech is just marketing talk and science bragging.

wahsmoh said:

I have to disagree completely. While the Dt880 isn't perfectly neutral it still sounds good, it doesnt disappear though and the Alpha Dog has better imaging and shows me more source material no matter how quiet the room is.

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The disappearing factor is known as transparency, which doesn't always have to do with imaging and sometimes colored headphones are more transparent than neutral headphones. I personally find the HD 600/650 to disappear despite their somewhat weak imaging. 

kman1211 said:

The disappearing factor is known as transparency, which doesn't always have to do with imaging and sometimes colored headphones are more transparent than neutral headphones. I personally find the HD 600/650 to disappear despite their somewhat weak imaging. 

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Hey just letting you all know I am not here to bash dynamics, in fact I have high hopes for Skylar and his team with the Nighthawk which I heard briefly. I think the most radical dynamic designs have been game changers in the Head-fi world(HD800) I just think the legends of yesteryear are outmatched by what is coming from the new planers.

And what I kman said, maybe they aren't perfectly neutral but how does one define neutral? Some people like natural over neutral. I guess that is called transparency. When a kick drum hits with force and impact that startles you, something harder to find in dynamic designs or feeling the grip of an 808 beat

kman1211 said:

  The disappearing factor is known as transparency, which doesn't always have to do with imaging and sometimes colored headphones are more transparent than neutral headphones. I personally find the HD 600/650 to disappear despite their somewhat weak imaging. 

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I thought Audeze had the best 'disappearing' headphones?

wahsmoh said:

Hey just letting you all know I am not here to bash dynamics, in fact I have high hopes for Skylar and his team with the Nighthawk which I heard briefly. I think the most radical dynamic designs have been game changers in the Head-fi world(HD800) I just think the legends of yesteryear are outmatched by what is coming from the new planers.

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Ah I understand. I have high hopes too, I really want to listen to the Nighthawks. Did you find the Nighthawk transparent? I find if a headphone isn't transparent then it has a issue that is simply preventing the headphone from disappearing. That very well may be true, though I personally don't necessarily agree. We will just have to wait and see. 

kman1211 said:

Ah I understand. I have high hopes too, I really want to listen to the Nighthawks. Did you find the Nighthawk transparent? I find if a headphone isn't transparent then it has a issue that is simply preventing the headphone from disappearing. That very well may be true, though I personally don't necessarily agree. We will just have to wait and see. 

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Unfortunately I didn't hear anything on their music server that could test the limits of the phone, I listened to Otis Redding "Sitting on the Dock of the Bay" and I found it transparent and very good with vocals. It's just a shame I didn't get to test it with something more difficult.

beagle said:

   
I thought Audeze had the best 'disappearing' headphones?

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They are up there in terms of transparency, but not sure about the fazor ones as I haven't heard them. What hurt the LCD-2/3 for me was comfort which distracted me too much from the sound after extended listening, the fit didn't agree with me sadly.

"Have you heard the HE-1000 for yourself? Some people didn't like it as much as the LCD-3F or Ether. Nano tech is just marketing talk and science bragging." good point
 
I'm optimistic that advancements in material science and nano scale design will lead to improvements however, will the improvements be appreciable?
 
"The disappearing factor is known as transparency" I will add this word to my head fi vocabulary The translucence factor

The "tweeter" 's back chamber  left un-damping is part of back-wave's resonance absorber.
It's simple, but works like magic.
 
I personal think THD measure means not much here, at less not in first order.

I'm surprised how off topic this discussion has gone...

To continue the banter I have to comment on the hd650. To me, it's been fascinating how almost everyone who gets into this hobby, no matter the direction their ears take them, we all bounce around different headphones and eventually end up with a favorite, and the odds weigh heavy that it's a hd600/650 or a $1000+ headphone.

It seems that nearly every brand has a house style, yet the hd600/650 has stayed relevant through all the advancements in technology. We all agree there are pros and cons to each headphone technology. But ultimately, I've found through trial and error (very expensive trial and error, mind you) that comfort and enjoyment take priority over on-paper superiority.

Comparing my hd580s to my HE-4s, yes, the HE-4 are technically better, but I could listen to the senns for hours vs abiut 45 minutes without head and earlobe fatigue. Not to mention fatigue from the bass quantity and the treble brightness. I have always been a detail first fan, but at the cost of my hearing, needing to take breaks... my priorities shifted.

The number one reason I prefer planars to dynamic is I find all dynamic headphones, especially my hd800 have to be positioned "just so" each and every time, or you cannot get the same sound quality. With planars, there's no "sweet spot" every position is the "sweet spot".

With my hd580 and hd650, those sweet spots are worth hunting for and will reward heavily by sounding like you're no longer wearing headphones, but listening to the content, rather than the drivers.

What I'm excited about from AudioQuest is they seem to be the only company besides planar headphone manufacturers that seem to be trying to rock the boat and introduce new technology to an already "conquered" field, dynamic headphones.

While AQ could have easily made yet-another-cookie-cutter headphone or rebranded an already successful product... They decided to try something new, and keep the price as low as possible, unlike most of their competitors.

Since I haven't heard the NightHawk, I cannot make any comments, no will I take much of the impressions to heart. I don't know how many loud demos I've been to where you cannot tell how good or bad equipment is because every listen you have external sound bleeding in.

Not to mention, if you have been on headfi long enough, it's easy to notice the trends. People flock to the "new-guy", listen, sell, repeat. Often the best headphones go unnoticed because the real owners are too busy enjoying their gear to bother to post. I've seen the Denon/basshead movement, the hd800 movement, the planar movement, and the grado and stax mafias. Everything else has come and gone where the hd6x0 has always been recommend as every FOTM disappears. Maybe the next movement will be comfort and low fatigue?

If the NightHawk is a good headphone, it will be recognized, or maybe not :evil: . But one thing is for sure, AQ made something comfortable, and that's more than can be said for many other headphones on the market today. There's something to be said about a headphone that can be listened to for hours.

I have no doubt AQ will have a success with this the NightHawk. They are one of the most well known cable companies, so as long as their product delivers where it's priced at, customers will purchase the NightHawk at B&Ms. Will it be a hit with Headfi, well, we shall have to wait and see. Many good headphones have been brushed off and too many have been overhyped just to be sold a month later. I'm excited to demo this at my local hifi shop and make my mind up on my own.

@mrscotchguy, I completely agree with everything you said.
 
It's funny because I have started this hobby with the HD6XX several years ago after being somewhat disappointed with most of the Audeze and HiFiMAN headphones, today I'm back with...the HD650. 
 
BTW, I'm also very excited about the NightHawk!

ytsejamer said:

  @mrscotchguy, I completely agree with everything you said.
 
It's funny because I have started this hobby with the HD6XX several years ago after being somewhat disappointed with most of the Audeze and HiFiMAN headphones, today I'm back with...the HD650. 

 
BTW, I'm also very excited about the NightHawk!

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Thanks!  I'm really looking forward to this headphone.  You can tell there was some love put into this design... for better or for worse 

wahsmoh said:

I have to disagree completely. While the Dt880 isn't perfectly neutral it still sounds good, it doesnt disappear though and the Alpha Dog has better imaging and shows me more source material no matter how quiet the room is.

I feel like dynamics (excluding the TOTL) ones have shortcomings when the musical passages get really busy, I find better instrument separation where things get complicated you can't hear certain details as well while the planars have better control. Comes down to musical preference. If you are listening to neo-soul hip hop beats from the Weeknd then the dynamics are going to struggle to give you superior bass while retaining control in the rest of the frequencies. If listening to classical one might prefer the airiness of the DT880 or watching a movie because the DT880 lends air to the recording that isn't there. The Alpha Dog on then other hand gives me a "room-feel" and doesn't sound good with bad YouTube movies or poorly mastered music because it lends very little to the soundstage. The Dt880 glances over poorly mastered soundstages while still making good recordings sound like they should, once again this is just one of the many mid-fi headphones I have heard and currently own. I just struggle to see how a dynamic will have the same kind of control as the mid to upper fi planers.

Soon as I get out of class I could give you a full list of songs that dynamics won't be able to handle.

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Excellent point you have here. When the musical passages get really busy...planars have better control, this is another reason why I trust the sound of dynamics, all of my dynamic cans serve as a litmus test for music, a subjective test, my personal test nothing more than that. I believe that great music will draw you in without being accurately reproduced. This means that if I hear a tune emanating out a cheap clock radio speaker that grabs my attention, I'm almost positive that I'm going to like the way it sounds in higher fidelity. When the tunes become to busy for my dynamics that's a sign that my ears are going to tap out. Busy tunes are not my thing. 
 
The Weekend by DJ Harris sounds congested possibly due to the way in was recorded?? So yeah it's going take $2000 planars to clean that jazz up, it felt trapped in my head, I switched tunes on Bandcamp to confirm it with another almost to busy for my ears tune by Jazzsteppa named Big Swing Dub, A/B yourself try Jazzsteppa - Bullet Proof this is about as busy as I go...crack is whack