[Tyll Hertsens]

   
I must refer back to Jude's post again. To sum up, because my equipment, software, and techniques are different than Tyll's we cannot compare my measurements with his, especially since his measurement include noise (THD+N). On a side note, I think there may be some problems with Tyll's THD+N measurements since every graph (as far as I can tell) has a sharp peak at 200Hz and another at one decade higher (2kHz). I don't have an explanation for why his charts all have this characteristic, but it must be some artifact of the measurement system and definitely not a characteristic of the headphones themselves.

 
 

   
IIRC Tyll has mentioned that those are artifacts relating to something in his test gear switching ranges and to just ignore them when reading his data.
 
 

 
Yup. There's a glitch when the ranges change and AP says there's nothing I can do about it.
 
I would say the THD+noise measurements I take can be quite problematic. All that has to happen is a truck going down my street and you'll see a raise in the THD+noise measurement....damit.
 
It's one of those things that if I change the way I do it, I'd have incompatibilities with all the old tests. I'm going to be writing the interpretation of my THD+noise plots article soon and will be pointing out the areas that are suspect and where the measurement can usually be trusted. Kinda sad, but I can only do the best I can do.

 

[XERO1]

 
 
Kinda sad, but I can only do the best I can do.

 
You're the man, Tyll. 
And thanks so much for all that you have already done for us! 

 

 

[Stereocilia]

The headphone market is saturated with design specs tuned towards specific tune genres, styles, and of course budgets. Like a graphic equalizer the head market is all over the place. Headphones designed to eliminate listening fatigue in my mind belongs in a design category by itself. Some folks are shopping for the lows and others the highs, I'm looking for that fatigue factor. This is reason I like headphones, the intimacy and the perfect stereo imaging, the fatigue factor. I can't listen to music without headphones anymore. A full size speaker systems done right is too costly for me. I don't want to buy ugly expensive quadratic diffusers panels, I don't want to be on the HiFi merry go round of buy and sell...the reason why high priced stereo gear goes unused in living rooms everywhere...listening fatigue. Think about it, how many minutes can you listen to your setup before you begin to lose interest? At what point do you feel like you need to put the tip of finger in your ear and shake? 
 
Headphones can be deceiving during a demo. I'm easily wowed by the first five minutes, this is why I think long haul listening comfort gets overlooked, the average attention span is mere minutes, the market knows this, the initial wow factor has to be high to get you out the door your cash depleted. It's wow man, those cans have so much bass, I'm in sonic heaven..a month later your looking for your next set of cans. On top of all that when the fads change and yours ear are all cringed up, your purchase eventually ends up in the trash, the plastic in the ocean.. bad karma. 
 
I think that listening fatigue becomes a subconscious thing, what I mean is, even the slightest hint of fatigue will subconsciously cause you to avoid the source of it, for me it's like looking at a beautiful high def image and then noticing a few dead pixels on the screen, it becomes annoying. Anything that even hints at being shrill, hot, or fatigue, no can do. I think that tube amps reduce listening fatigue, even ordered harmonics or something, maybe the electrons traveling the gap between the glass, I'm not sure but it works for me. Open back headphones reduce listening fatigue something about the reverberation I guess, damping helps as well. And last but not least a cross over circuit, I think sound stage influences fatigue, as in too wide and your focus is bouncing side to side, too narrow and the perception is trapped in your head. The buzz word holographic is an exaggerated head term, more like quasi-holographic or full size speaker like 

 

[wahsmoh]

  The importance of power cleanness is very important in my experience. It's the very reason I went with the Wyrd and the cheap $50 Furman power conditioner I got. I haven't tried better power conditioners, but what I got helped my system a lot, especially when my desktop PC is the source. Actually ended up being two of my best purchases for my desktop system. Never really realized the dirtiness of the power until after cleaning up the power. The background is much blacker to my ears on my system, everything improved, but the bass was the most obvious improvement. My iPad Mini Retina is my best sounding portable device(my ipod touch sounds thin and hollow compared to it) and the black background of it makes it good enough for me. The biggest improvements I've had with better DACs is things are better separated, more defined and flushed out, and fuller. Battery power does have the advantage, sadly many battery powered devices don't have the same level of quality of parts in them, though I have notice this has been improving. 

I agree with you. I much preferred the sound of the iPad mini retina over my iPod nano 5th generation. Not all integrated DACs are really that bad. They just don't dazzle or wow me as much as when I listen to my dedicated source.

 

[Stereocilia]

Some measurements on iPod Touch 4th Gen, http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/ipod-touch-4g.htm
 
"Channel balance is within 0.02 dB, far better than analog potentiometers, frequency response is better than most audiophile gear at +0, -0.1 dB from 10 Hz to 20 kHz, and THD + noise is 0.0073% (better than most tube gear) from a 128 kbps AAC file."
 
This is the headphone jack output, according to Ken Rockwell. As far as the measurements go, I'll side with solid and superb. Like I posted before I don't use the headphone jack at all its LOD always 
 
I'm a lucky Head-Fi'er that I live in Chicago land, Audio Consultants have lots of head gear to demo, and I've been to Ray Samuels shop, to hear what the "the best 15 minutes money can buy" I got the chance to hear what the higher end is like. It's a world of rapidly diminishing returns the higher up you go in price and quality. $10,000 speakers don't sound 5X better than $2000 speakers, and the same goes for head gear. 
 
Last thing the Sennheiser HD 600 was released in 1996, the HD650 was released in 2003, both of these model are highly rated and sell. The HD650 is becoming legendary, anybody seriously into head gear knows about it and what it can do with the right tube amp. My point, if something was blowin' minds back in 96' that means it should deliver the same mind blow experience in 2006, and 2066, same make same model, because the ears on heads in 2066 are going to the same ones on the heads in 1996, bold claims about absolute fidelity don't impress me but the test of time does.             

 

[kman1211]

  Some measurements on iPod Touch 4th Gen, http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/ipod-touch-4g.htm
 
"Channel balance is within 0.02 dB, far better than analog potentiometers, frequency response is better than most audiophile gear at +0, -0.1 dB from 10 Hz to 20 kHz, and THD + noise is 0.0073% (better than most tube gear) from a 128 kbps AAC file."
 
This is the headphone jack output, according to Ken Rockwell. As far as the measurements go, I'll side with solid and superb. Like I posted before I don't use the headphone jack at all its LOD always 
 
I'm lucky Head-Fi'er that I live in Chicago land, Audio Consultants have lots of head gearto demo, and I've been to Ray Samuels shop, to hear what the "the best 15 minutes money can buy" I got the chance to hear what the higher end is like. It's a world of rapidly diminishing returns the higher up you go in price and quality. $10,000 speakers don't sound 5X better than $2000 speakers, and the same goes for head gear. 
 
Last thing the Sennheiser HD 600 was released in 1996, the HD650 was released in 2003, both of these model are highly rated and sell. The HD650 is becoming legendary, anybody seriously into head gear knows about it and what it can do with the right tube amp. My point, if something was blowin' minds back in 96' that means it should deliver the same mind blow experience in 2006, and 2066, same make same model, because the ears on heads in 2066 are going to the same ones on the heads in 1996, bold claims about absolute fidelity don't impress me but the test of time does.             

iOS devices do measure quite well. Sadly there are no good tube portable devices out there as ss devices bother me for the long term. I have an annoying problem where my ears get stuffy when I experience listening fatigue, this leads to a channel imbalance in my hearing when it happens. I keep my listening levels reasonable. I found only tube or hybrid devices can prevent listening fatigue and thus prevent my sensitive ears from reacting in such a way. This is why I don't bother with portable gear. So non-fatiguing amps, dacs, headphones, clean power, and even cables help make my ears happy.
 
The reason I'm really looking forward to the Nighthawk is I'm really hoping it causes me little to no listening fatigue. 
 
I've heard a lot of top of line gear myself, the improvements do get smaller and smaller with drastic price increases and it's not unusual to prefer somewhat cheaper gear to more experience gear. I actually feel quite mixed about many flagships.
 
The HD 650 and HD 600 are great headphones, I personally think the HD 650 is the better of the two. Some headphones do stand the test of time, those are the headphones I often find myself gravitating to. 

 

[Stereocilia]

I'm anxious to hear the Nighthawk  http://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest%E2%80%99s-nighthawk-headphones
 
"The Nighthawks had me choking back tears of musical appreciation. This was the first time I fully grasped what a great lyricist Paul Simon really was. "The Mississippi Delta is shining like a National Guitar . . . "
 
Nice pitch by Stereophile but will it make the class A recommended components?

 

[wahsmoh]

  Some measurements on iPod Touch 4th Gen, http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/ipod-touch-4g.htm
 
"Channel balance is within 0.02 dB, far better than analog potentiometers, frequency response is better than most audiophile gear at +0, -0.1 dB from 10 Hz to 20 kHz, and THD + noise is 0.0073% (better than most tube gear) from a 128 kbps AAC file."
 
This is the headphone jack output, according to Ken Rockwell. As far as the measurements go, I'll side with solid and superb. Like I posted before I don't use the headphone jack at all its LOD always 
 
I'm a lucky Head-Fi'er that I live in Chicago land, Audio Consultants have lots of head gear to demo, and I've been to Ray Samuels shop, to hear what the "the best 15 minutes money can buy" I got the chance to hear what the higher end is like. It's a world of rapidly diminishing returns the higher up you go in price and quality. $10,000 speakers don't sound 5X better than $2000 speakers, and the same goes for head gear. 
 
Last thing the Sennheiser HD 600 was released in 1996, the HD650 was released in 2003, both of these model are highly rated and sell. The HD650 is becoming legendary, anybody seriously into head gear knows about it and what it can do with the right tube amp. My point, if something was blowin' minds back in 96' that means it should deliver the same mind blow experience in 2006, and 2066, same make same model, because the ears on heads in 2066 are going to the same ones on the heads in 1996, bold claims about absolute fidelity don't impress me but the test of time does.             

While I don't want to stray from the discussion of the NightHawk, that is why new driver technologies are being reiterated/invented. No matter how good the HD600/HD650 chain is, it still sounds and images like a dynamic headphone driver. I have found the best HE-560 setups and LCD-3 setups to be vastly superior to the HD600/650 no matter the setup. Doesn't take away from how great of a dynamic headphone it is. It just doesn't have the slam and bass control that planars have.
 
Back to the NightHawk, this is a very promising headphone. I don't think my CanJam 2015 experience was enough for me to get a good listen. I would hope that they send out "tour" units much like Mr. Speakers did, so experienced Head-fier's can give them a decent write up and comparison.

 

[Stereocilia]

"It still sounds and images like a dynamic headphone driver" this is an excellent point! https://www.audeze.com/technology/tech-tour/planar-magnetics-overview
 
Dynamics and Planar sound different, I agree that planar tech has significant advantages over dynamics in all areas except one. Planar headphones don't disappear, I am constantly aware of the plane or

magnetic diaphragm, the wall one inch away from my ear. Good dynamic cans are tuned with air holes front and back (take Grado for example) its all pressure tuned and the air wave gives a little. I prefer the relaxed air wave of dynamics over the tight plane of a magnetic diaphragm. The planar perception is that air has nowhere to go, this quickly turns into fatigue, while dynamics have more air wave suspension if that makes sense?​

 

Long live dynamic            ​

 

[kman1211]

"It still sounds and images like a dynamic headphone driver" this is an excellent point! https://www.audeze.com/technology/tech-tour/planar-magnetics-overview

Dynamics and Planar sound different, I agree that planar tech has significant advantages over dynamics in all areas except one. Planar headphones don't disappear, I am constantly aware of the plane or

magnetic diaphragm, the wall one inch away from my ear. Good dynamic cans are tuned with air holes front and back (take Grado for example) its all pressure tuned and the air wave gives a little. I prefer the relaxed air wave of dynamics over the tight plane of a magnetic diaphragm. The planar perception is that air has no where to go, this quickly turns into fatigue, while dynamics have more air wave suspension if that makes sense?​

Long live dynamic            ​

The HD 600/650 are actually fairly weak in terms of imaging for a dynamic and is what I would consider their biggest weakness. I don't think it's really fair to draw conclusions based on them compared to Orthos, especially considering much of the best imaging I've ever heard has been from dynamics. I personally think orthos are overrated, I've heard enough to know their sound very well. They don't jive that well with me and I found what is often considered their benefits not necessarily true. I think orthos bother me for the same reason that you mentioned, they don't really disappear and are kind of stuffy.

 

[wahsmoh]

The HD 600/650 are actually fairly weak in terms of imaging for a dynamic and is what I would consider their biggest weakness. I don't think it's really fair to draw conclusions based on them compared to Orthos, especially considering much of the best imaging I've ever heard has been from dynamics. I personally think orthos are overrated, I've heard enough to know their sound very well. They don't jive that well with me and I found what is often considered their benefits not necessarily true. I think orthos bother me for the same reason that you mentioned, they don't really disappear and are kind of stuffy.

Well you'd sit in the 10% here on Head-fi. Most of us have graduated past the HD800 and there are other offerings that truly do image far superior than any dynamic mid-fi I have ever heard including Anax modded HD800 for example. There is no dynamic that has the kind of impact I heard form the Ether or the Abyss at Can Jam 2015. No way, only thing close would be the Sony MDR-R10 which is basically unobtainable.

 

[kman1211]

Well you'd sit in the 10% here on Head-fi. Most of us have graduated past the HD800 and there are other offerings that truly do image far superior than any dynamic mid-fi I have ever heard including Anax modded HD800 for example. There is no dynamic that has the kind of impact I heard form the Ether or the Abyss at Can Jam 2015. No way, only thing close would be the Sony MDR-R10 which is basically unobtainable.

The HD 800 was never really my cup of tea some reason, I may be weird in saying but I thought the K812 was better. I haven't heard the Ether and some of the newest planars, but have heard the Abyss as well as both versions of the R10, though I much preferred the bass-heavy. The Abyss is my favorite planar. If new planers are taking the direction of the Abyss I can see where you are going, I was disappointed with many other planars I've heard. It is sad about the R10, easily the best dynamic I've ever heard, yet it's unobtainable. Impact really isn't really the main thing I'm looking for in a headphones anyways, I do like to have it, but I find headphones such as the HD 650 and K712 on the right system easily produce more than enough for my liking. What I care about the most is tonality, transparency, enjoyability, and listening comfort.

 

[Clemmaster]

 
Well you'd sit in the 10% here on Head-fi. Most of us have graduated past the HD800 and there are other offerings that truly do image far superior than any dynamic mid-fi I have ever heard including Anax modded HD800 for example. There is no dynamic that has the kind of impact I heard form the Ether or the Abyss at Can Jam 2015. No way, only thing close would be the Sony MDR-R10 which is basically unobtainable.

The one from Can Jam? It was the bass light version and had, well, barely any impact...

 

[kman1211]

The one from Can Jam? It was the bass light version and had, well, barely any impact...

The bass-light R10 doesn't really have all that much impact, honestly it does not have enough for my tastes. Not really sure why some people prefer it to the bass-heavy. Though the bass-heavy and bass-light are very different phones. Even though the bass-heavy may not have the most bass impact, I found it had plenty in my auditioning.

 

[wahsmoh]

The one from Can Jam? It was the bass light version and had, well, barely any impact...

I was just refering to the R10 in general (bass heavy) didn't hear what's his names who also brought the Stax setup