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1964 Ears Adel IEMs
Sep 10, 2016 at 12:22 PM Post #6,541 of 9,124
Incoming: APEX M20 modules.  Will let you know how they compare to ADEL S1/B1/G1.  Been asked about this comparison many times already, should have the answer sometime next week
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Sep 10, 2016 at 1:05 PM Post #6,542 of 9,124
twister6 said:
Incoming: APEX M20 modules.  Will let you know how they compare to ADEL S1/B1/G1.  Been asked about this comparison many times already, should have the answer sometime next week :wink:
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Thanks! Will look forward to the comparison. Already owning all the modules it would be interesting to know if there is any reason to consider it.
 
Sep 11, 2016 at 5:39 PM Post #6,544 of 9,124
I have just bought Jalo's U12. He plans to ship it out Monday. I am excited to compare it to the Uni Angie and CIEM Solar.

His comes with the B1 Module, and I have some concerns. I've read a lot about it, going through the last hundred or so pages. I know a great many seem to prefer it over the original S1. But I quite enjoy a warmer signature. Not dark, but warm, and very smooth. I fear the B1 might sound bass-light, or lack the full, thick, rich sound all the early reviews praised the A/U12 for. Remember, I enjoy IEMs like Solar, ATH-IM03, and Angie set to 2:30 on the pots.

Do you think I'll be satisfied in this regard, or should I buy the S1 or MAM Module?
 
Sep 11, 2016 at 7:34 PM Post #6,545 of 9,124
pinkypowers said:
I have just bought Jalo's U12. He plans to ship it out Monday. I am excited to compare it to the Uni Angie and CIEM Solar.

His comes with the B1 Module, and I have some concerns. I've read a lot about it, going through the last hundred or so pages. I know a great many seem to prefer it over the original S1. But I quite enjoy a warmer signature. Not dark, but warm, and very smooth. I fear the B1 might sound bass-light, or lack the full, thick, rich sound all the early reviews praised the A/U12 for. Remember, I enjoy IEMs like Solar, ATH-IM03, and Angie set to 2:30 on the pots.

Do you think I'll be satisfied in this regard, or should I buy the S1 or MAM Module?
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Haven't gotten my pair yet, but you may want to try covering the port that let's air out on the module, to get and idea if you want a darker sound or not. It has been said that covering the adel port is the same as having the mam closed.
 
Sep 11, 2016 at 7:44 PM Post #6,546 of 9,124
pinkypowers said:
I have just bought Jalo's U12. He plans to ship it out Monday. I am excited to compare it to the Uni Angie and CIEM Solar.

His comes with the B1 Module, and I have some concerns. I've read a lot about it, going through the last hundred or so pages. I know a great many seem to prefer it over the original S1. But I quite enjoy a warmer signature. Not dark, but warm, and very smooth. I fear the B1 might sound bass-light, or lack the full, thick, rich sound all the early reviews praised the A/U12 for. Remember, I enjoy IEMs like Solar, ATH-IM03, and Angie set to 2:30 on the pots.

Do you think I'll be satisfied in this regard, or should I buy the S1 or MAM Module?
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Before you invest a single dollar into any new module or cable, invest $10 into something like this UE buffer jack (impedance adapter).  For U12/A12 - impedance adapter is an ear opener and a must have.  Oh, and don't worry about the bass.  I think you will be happy with the quantity and the quality.  Of course, we all have different taste and sound perception, so I can't speak for you, but start with what you have now (U12 + B1) and get that buffer jack or try some impedance adapter (nothing more than 75 ohms).  Then, decide which way to go next
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Sep 11, 2016 at 7:56 PM Post #6,547 of 9,124
pinkypowers said:
I have just bought Jalo's U12. He plans to ship it out Monday. I am excited to compare it to the Uni Angie and CIEM Solar.

His comes with the B1 Module, and I have some concerns. I've read a lot about it, going through the last hundred or so pages. I know a great many seem to prefer it over the original S1. But I quite enjoy a warmer signature. Not dark, but warm, and very smooth. I fear the B1 might sound bass-light, or lack the full, thick, rich sound all the early reviews praised the A/U12 for. Remember, I enjoy IEMs like Solar, ATH-IM03, and Angie set to 2:30 on the pots.

Do you think I'll be satisfied in this regard, or should I buy the S1 or MAM Module?
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I haven't heard u12 with B1, but based on the signature etc, I should say that you needn't worry about using B1. It won't be bass light. It would be good quality bass as needed
 
Sep 11, 2016 at 8:33 PM Post #6,548 of 9,124
twister6 said:
Before you invest a single dollar into any new module or cable, invest $10 into something like this UE buffer jack (impedance adapter).  For U12/A12 - impedance adapter is an ear opener and a must have.  Oh, and don't worry about the bass.  I think you will be happy with the quantity and the quality.  Of course, we all have different taste and sound perception, so I can't speak for you, but start with what you have now (U12 + B1) and get that buffer jack or try some impedance adapter (nothing more than 75 ohms).  Then, decide which way to go next :wink:
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According to Brooko's measurements the Impedance Adapter takes away EVEN MORE bass, and causes a steeper sub-bass roll-off.

Are you trying to kill me?

 
Sep 11, 2016 at 8:37 PM Post #6,549 of 9,124
twister6 said:
Before you invest a single dollar into any new module or cable, invest $10 into something like this UE buffer jack (impedance adapter).  For U12/A12 - impedance adapter is an ear opener and a must have.  Oh, and don't worry about the bass.  I think you will be happy with the quantity and the quality.  Of course, we all have different taste and sound perception, so I can't speak for you, but start with what you have now (U12 + B1) and get that buffer jack or try some impedance adapter (nothing more than 75 ohms).  Then, decide which way to go next :wink:
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Will the impedance adapter negatively sound quality in any way? If it brightens up the A12 while maintaining sound quality, I'm ordering one tonight. Tuning the A12 for high impedance sources and then calling it an "audiophile" product is quite a stretch, yea it produces great sound but at least a disclaimer wpuld have been nice, so far 64 have done nothing to address any of our issues with their "flagship" product that doesnt play nice with flagship level sources.
 
Sep 11, 2016 at 8:44 PM Post #6,550 of 9,124
I'll be using the Astell & Kern AK120ii in Balanced. That already has a slightly high output impedance (2 Ohm). So it should pair much better than it does on the Mojo.
 
Sep 11, 2016 at 8:56 PM Post #6,551 of 9,124
pinkypowers said:
 
twister6 said:
Before you invest a single dollar into any new module or cable, invest $10 into something like this UE buffer jack (impedance adapter).  For U12/A12 - impedance adapter is an ear opener and a must have.  Oh, and don't worry about the bass.  I think you will be happy with the quantity and the quality.  Of course, we all have different taste and sound perception, so I can't speak for you, but start with what you have now (U12 + B1) and get that buffer jack or try some impedance adapter (nothing more than 75 ohms).  Then, decide which way to go next
wink.gif
Click to expand...


According to Brooko's measurements the Impedance Adapter takes away EVEN MORE bass, and causes a steeper sub-bass roll-off.

Are you trying to kill me?
 
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We all have different point of hearing reference and how we perceive the sound.  Graphs are good for a relative comparison when you are already familiar with a base sound and trying to decide how to change it.  Keep in mind, these graph are generated with a coupler and a mic and earpiece inserted in there, simulating the ear.  Eartip selection is crucial to bass quantity, as well as the distance between your eardrum and the driver.  Too many variables.  Use graphs for your reference, and your ears to make the final judgment.
 
You haven't even received U12 and already splitting hairs about the bass?
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  Once you get it, come back and share your impression.  If you want more bass in comparison to B1, you should try G1.  With impedance adapter, you get more clarity and bass sounds tighter.  There could be some reduction, but it wasn't night'n'day.
 
Sep 11, 2016 at 9:01 PM Post #6,552 of 9,124
I agree, it's way too early for me to say anything about the sound. I don't have them yet.

I just found it funny that when I expressed my one and only worry of there not being enough bass, you suggested an option to reduce it even further. You're a madman. :D
 
Sep 11, 2016 at 9:06 PM Post #6,553 of 9,124
ike1985 said:
 
twister6 said:
Before you invest a single dollar into any new module or cable, invest $10 into something like this UE buffer jack (impedance adapter).  For U12/A12 - impedance adapter is an ear opener and a must have.  Oh, and don't worry about the bass.  I think you will be happy with the quantity and the quality.  Of course, we all have different taste and sound perception, so I can't speak for you, but start with what you have now (U12 + B1) and get that buffer jack or try some impedance adapter (nothing more than 75 ohms).  Then, decide which way to go next
wink.gif
Click to expand...


Will the impedance adapter negatively sound quality in any way? If it brightens up the A12 while maintaining sound quality, I'm ordering one tonight. Tuning the A12 for high impedance sources and then calling it an "audiophile" product is quite a stretch, yea it produces great sound but at least a disclaimer wpuld have been nice, so far 64 have done nothing to address any of our issues with their "flagship" product that doesnt play nice with flagship level sources.
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Agree, it was misleading.  When I was reviewing it, I was going nuts trying different tips, modules, cables to get to the sound that I want.  Unfortunately, impedance adapter info was disclosed a bit too late.  But at the same time, the explanation does make sense since it's a flagship for performers who use high impedance output stage equipment.  Not audiophiles.  Negative effect?  Well, it will affect the sound.  From your profile, if you still use S7edge  - with impedance adapter you probably won't have enough volume to drive it directly to compensate for signal attenuation.  With Mojo, I assume you will be fine if you have plenty of headroom now driving your CIEM
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  It's a lot easier to recommend $10 adapter than $500 cable
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Sep 11, 2016 at 10:02 PM Post #6,554 of 9,124
videl said:
I posted about output impedance because it's important you all understand that output impedance will always have an effect on frequency response... one way or another.... with ANY iem. With the 12's if you have a standard S1 module having a higher output impedance source will give you the leaner sound if you are searching for it.


The B1/MAM changes the frequency response of the 12's. The B1 leans out the mid bass and low mids. Previous posts made by other members here are a testament to that. The 12's with a B1/MAM have the same response curve you get with a higher output impedance source with the S1 module. That was the whole intention of these modules in the first place. They exist so both audiophiles and musicians can enjoy the full experience of the products exactly as they were designed to sound. The beauty is the modules offer different flavors of sound that the end user chooses. Some people prefer a leaner sound. Swapping in a B1/MAM module or changing over to a higher output impedance source will provide that sound signature. My earlier post was just to show that you guys have more than one option.

Think of it this way... if you don't want to mess with output sources at all the S1 module is for stage and studio use and the B1 module for lower output impedance sources that most audiophiles own. The 12's sound exactly as Vitaliy intended when he designed them.
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I'm copying a post by Videl that further addressed the impedence issue and the relationship to the various modules. From this post I'm reading it to mean that the B1 module with lower impedence devices should provide the same or similar tuning as the S1 with higher impedence devices.

Whether this is by design or a happy outcome is not clear but it does appear there may be much ado about nothing if what Videl says is correct. Unfortunately I don't have the ability to try different impedence outputs with my B1 and S1 modules to test Videls claim that the B1 module adjusts the tuning so that low impedence devices with the U12 sound similar to higher impedence devices and the S1 module.

Perhaps someone out there has the gear to try this.
 
Sep 12, 2016 at 3:09 AM Post #6,555 of 9,124
videl said:
Hello again everybody,


I would like to address something that maybe at times overlooked by some listeners. I am referring in this case to output impedance. It is extremely important that when choosing an iem one chooses the proper device to drive said unit. Output impedance of an amp, dac, or phone plays a big role on frequency response. Choosing the proper amp can make the difference of loving or hating the sound signature you end up hearing.

For those who say the A/U12 is very "veiled" and lacks detail with the S1 module I can with certainty say that you are probably listening to your A/U12's through a very low output impedance source. In the case of the A/U12 this gives more bottom end, higher low mids, and slightly dipped out high mids/highs. Remember though this depends on the design and tuning of the iem... believe it or not some iems behave the opposite way around when being driven with higher and lower output impedance sources. The A/U12 inherent design is such that mating them with a higher output impedance will give the proper "reference" frequency response. They will no longer be so bass heavy and have a much more transparent top end.


I would like to point out that some people prefer a darker and bass heavy sound... which can be very appealing with certain content as well as not fatiguing when listening at loud volumes. A CHORD Mojo would be a perfect amp/dac for those who enjoy that type of sound and own some A/U12's. Some people prefer a flatter "reference" sound signature... one that has more transparent high mids and highs and maybe not so much inflation in the low mids and mid bass. A higher output impedance amp/dac would achieve such results for those listeners.


I believe its very possible that many of you that say the A/U12's sound "veiled" and that the B1 module fixes the veiling issue are using a low output impedance amp/dac and are compensating with a B1 module to bring down the bass and low mids... Which is what the B1 module was designed for. Thus balancing out the inherent response of the A/U12's through a low output impedance amp. For those who believe the A/U12 sounds "veiled" with the S1 module simply changing over to a source with a high output impedance will give you the desired sound signature... all without swapping modules. For some it's easier to swap a B1 module in instead of output source and that's a perfect solution as well.

Here is a comparison of the U12 through two different output sources. One with a low output impedance (CHORD Mojo). And one with a higher output impedance (USBPre 2). Notice the seesaw effect between switching from one source to the other.

Some of our products, the 12's being one of them, were designed for stage and studio use. Live performace and studio gear typically have higher output impedances. Thus the 12's need a higher output impedance if you're searching for a more transparent sound signature. Forgive me if I sound redundant at times I just wanted to explain the effects of output impedance for everyone to understand. I hope this helps you guys achieve the sound signatures you search for
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EDIT: I apologize, in the image it says the USBPre 2 is 30 ohm output impedance... It's actually 22 ohm. Excuse me for this minor mistake.
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This question isn't directed specifically to Vidal (as he just provided some measurements and raised a question), but to the thread as a whole.
 
I'm confused. Doesn't the above graph show the U12's frequency response from two different amplifiers?  If so, wouldn't a difference in frequency response between two different amps be expected?  It could be a difference in impedance, but on the other hand it could be several other factors (including the inherent frequency response of the amps themselves), right?  It seems as if this thread has taken this chart as proof that impedance is the cause.
 
Mostly I listen to my A12 and U6 using my Project Ember amp.  It has the ability to change output impedance on-the-fly to any of three settings: .1 ohm, 35 ohms and 120 ohms.  My A12 are sublime at .1 ohms, and sound like crap in comparison at 35 ohms. The bass rolls off, the treble becomes harsh and the soundstage and openness of presentation (which I love about the ADEL) suffers.   It's not that the Ember only sounds good at .1 ohm (for example the HE-560 sounds best at 35 ohms and the Beyer T90 was best at 120 ohms).  I have the S1, B1 & MAM and mostly use the MAM.
 
So what I'm hearing leaves me confused by the extent impedance has taken this thread. 
 
BTW, do any of you happen to live near Seattle?  I would love for someone else to hear their 64 Audio headphones with the Ember.
 
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