paulchiu said:

   
A coouple of reflections @isquirrel
 
1. Steve Guttenberg (CNET & Stereophile) did say the Nagra HD DAC head amp made "astonishing" music with the HE1000.
 

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I noticed this as well.  Interested to hear what isquirrel thinks. I have searched in all the places that I know to search and no one can provide specs on the headphone output including the Nagra dealer in Los Angeles that I called today.

romaz said:

   
I verified that the Takatsuki 300bs and 274s were in place.  The drivers were not the ideal Tung Sol round plate with oval mica that you use but rather the stock 6SN7 drivers that Woo supplies.  I realize the driver would have made a difference.  I am coming from a smaller tube perspective (2A3 and currently PX-4 which is somewhere closer to a 45) where everything is tighter and somehow the presentation I heard was not as controlled, especially in comparison to some of the other amps.  It also didn't help that my expectations were probably unrealistic.

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Woo is using Takatsuki now?  That is quite an upgrade.

paulchiu said:

   
Woo is using Takatsuki now?  That is quite an upgrade.

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Woo supplied Tyll with both stock and upgraded Takatsuki output tubes and rectifiers.  Tyll chose to use the Takatsukis which I verified.

romaz said:

   
Your take on this is interesting as I have no experience with the CAT.  Same thing goes for Antipodes.  The problem with using PCs is while these machines that we are talking about are purpose-built, as you say, they are subject to a complicated OS that often requires tinkering and oversight.  While I have a computer background and have experienced my share of aggravation with Windows and am even tolerant of some of them, while listening to music, this is not the time I wish to have to worry about the OS.  For me, the simpler the better which is why Linux-based devices have greater appeal (CAPS, Aries, Aurender, etc).  Like you, however, SQ is paramount and so I am in search of the device that seamlessly combines SQ with trouble-free ease of use.  And yes, Roon is the icing on the cake.

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I have spent a considerable amount of time working on these music servers, and actually got Linux (or I should say VortexBox with Logitech SB) working on the CAT so I could compare Apples with Apples, I have an Antipodes DX which runs Linux VB. The CAT with Vortex Box did not sound as good as with Win 8.1. CAD have done a very good job at doing all the tweaking themselves and the CAT was supplied pretty much fully optimised, a full Windows install is about 120+ processes, whereas CAD's install is less than 40. They have done what they can to prevent the end user from interfering with it and also disabled auto updates. Like you I have a IT background and like you the last thing I want to be doing is stuffing around with Windows boxes when I should be enjoying music, so I was trepadacious going into the CAT. My concerns have turned out to be unfounded and it has been 100% stable and I leave it on 24/7. It auto rips, (I changed that to AIFF for easier tagging). When I installed Roon initially - before V1.1, I had issues due to Roon Open CL graphics requirements. I was running the CAT headless, with a monitor attached it was no issue, The OS looks for a monitor as part of its GPU driver loading scheme, so I had to write a script that logged me out of RDP, started Roon and then logged me back in using RDP. With Roon Server they do not use the GPU at all so there are no driver calls or need for the OS to load the Open CL drivers. Danny from Roon confirmed this has significantly improved the SQ in their testing as Roon is not hitting the GPU every second.
 
Remarkably he told me that they had found that Roon SQ was affected by a Windows box scrolling in Chrome a few feet away from the computer running Roon server! The 2 PC's were not connected in anyway.
 
I ran tests with a number of combinations including JRiver as a DLNA server into JPlay streamer using Kernel Streaming (the issue for me is that JPlay only accepts .WAV files) so basically a PITA. However I tried many combinations, to my intense relief my Roon script workaround using just the DAC's own ASIO driver sounded best so I was able to keep full file compatibility as well as the best SQ. IT was clear that I could get near the SQ of Win 8.1 > Roon Server > ASIO driver > DAC with Linux. This was reflected in the untouched with SQ of the Antipodes box. There is a lot more than optimisation of software going on to create good sound, in fact I discovered something major, it involves going in a totally different direction to all of the other music servers out there and produced a sound that was significantly better. Getting off topic here so PM is best if you want take this conversation any further.
 
I accept that I am OCD about my audio   

romaz said:

  Woo supplied Tyll with both stock and upgraded Takatsuki output tubes and rectifiers.  Tyll chose to use the Takatsukis which I verified.

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Again off topic here - sorry
 
I would not say that the Taktsuki's are sweeter than the SERP 300B's, almost the opposite in fact. What has become apparent is that the driver tube is paramount, its hard to say which one is best but my top 5 are:
 
Tung Sol RP 1940's with oval mica's
RCA Red Base 5692's
RCA Black Glass, Black Plates 1940's era
Sylvania 52 Bad Boys - tall bottles
Sylvania Metal Base 6SN7W's - tall bottles
 
There is another driver tube which is very different to all of the above but not in the same family and requires an adapter.
 
The sound produced by Tyll's 234's could have been varied considerably and possibly improved, however the above tubes range from sweet and romantic to neutral and dynamic so would have been a subjective choice and perhaps not the best suited to what he was trying to achieve.

isquirrel said:

  Getting off topic here so PM is best if you want take this conversation any further.
 
I accept that I am OCD about my audio 

 

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Since we're rolling DACs at these levels where they rely so strongly on the best source possible, I think your comments are in line with what we all wish to hear.  Your OCD is definitely our gain and I for one am happy to ride the coattails of your hard work.  I would never have guessed a Win 8.1 box would outdo Win 2012 Server or Linux but this speaks volumes to how well engineered and executed this CAT server is.  What concerns me is that even without OS updates, PCs seem to get so polluted over time just by routine internet browsing and installation of poorly designed software.  I would almost prefer that CAT clamp down to some extent on the software that can be installed (perhaps software should go through a validation process) so that we consumers don't unwittingly install something we shouldn't and this may even apply to which version of JRiver is best.  It would be ideal if maybe they published a "best practices" journal every month as undoubtedly, there will be those who will screw things up.  It also strikes me as odd that the end-user should be the one to do all the legwork of getting something like Roon functional and working optimally but maybe they don't have the manpower to do all that you're doing.
 
Either way, you've piqued my curiosity once again.  While I still have my concerns about the "user experience" with the CAT, if you say it's significantly better than anything you've heard, and without a doubt you've heard a lot, I have to take notice.  I have e-mailed CAT for more information but I'm not sure how easy it will be for someone in the U.S. to review this unit.

isquirrel said:

  It is very interesting to read about the Total DAC unfortunately I have never heard one and they are difficult to get in Australia. Next time I am in Europe I will make time to have a listen.
 

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Even though you are already comparing state of the art gear against the Nagra and as you like the Nagra for more reasons than just SQ, I think you owe it to yourself to also audition a TotalDac.  It's creator, Vincent Brient, is a brilliant guy with an interesting engineering background that makes him well suited to doing what he does and unlike some other companies, DACs are all he makes and he hand makes each one using very expensive 0.01% tolerance Vishay Foil Resistors (and not the cheaper 0.1% or even 1% variety) that many consider the finest resistor there is.  Even with the less expensive d1-dual, my sense is it will compete well with the Nagra and for directly driving an HE-1000, it may even outdo the Nagra.  You cannot underestimate it based on price (even though 9,100 Euros is not cheap) because Vincent Brient sells directly whereas with Nagra, MSB and others, you have to pay a dealer and so the price you pay is inflated.  Should you wish to aim higher, he makes a d1-monobloc with 400 Vishay Foil Resistors all the way up to his flagship, the d1-twelve which contains an unheard of 12 ladders or 600 Vishay Foil Resistors for about the price of a dCS Vivaldi.  With his equipment, the price you pay actually goes towards something since he doesn't have to pay a big staff (he is a one man show). Vincent is so confident of his products that he will give any customer 14 days to audition his items and will take them back without question and without a restocking fee if you're not satisfied (although you would be responsible for shipping).  He is also very responsive and patient to answer numerous questions via e-mail.  During your next visit to Europe, you should strongly consider a visit as we would all value your impression on this DAC given your vast knowledge of so many fine DACs.

nepherte said:

  @romaz: We can move our discussion via the appropriate channels (ie. Totaldac thread or PM).

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Agreed, @nepherte.  I will post there once my monoblocs and server arrive.

Very interesting thread, so much useful input from great headfiers. 
 
Sorry for this off topic question, but I read several times in this thread, that people connect their headphones directly into the balanced outputs of their DACs, which led to my question. Would it be possible to connect your headphones the same way to preamplifiers as they can produce a similar output to DAC's? 
 
Thanks 

klonk said:

  Very interesting thread, so much useful input from great headfiers. 
 
Sorry for this off topic question, but I read several times in this thread, that people connect their headphones directly into the balanced outputs of their DACs, which led to my question. Would it be possible to connect your headphones the same way to preamplifiers as they can produce a similar output to DAC's? 
 
Thanks 

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Yes, but there are potential challenges with impedance mismatches although the worst that can happen is it won't sound good.  The best headphone application I know is to directly connect to a passive preamp and those based on "autoformers" also know as "Slagleformers" intrigue me.  As I often listen to headphones at lower volumes to protect my hearing, the one thing I notice is that as I lower the volume pot, this lowers the ouput voltage but accordingly, it also lowers current.  Since the dynamics that you hear from your headphone are a function of current, than as you lower the current, the dynamics of what you are listening to is also compromised.  Now, wouldn't it be great if you could somehow lower your volume and not diminish the dynamics of what you're hearing.  Well, this is were autoformers are special since they are based on transformers with varying resistance.  As you lower the volume knob, the voltage drops and hence volume drops but since the resistance also drops, current is maintained.  This is based on the formula V=IR where V=voltage, I=current and R=resistance and V and R drop accordingly while I is maintained.  The impact of this is as you lower volume, the dynamics of what you are listening to is maintained.  Furthermore, passive preamps generally add nothing to the sound.  

Just heard back from CAT (that was fast).  They are willing to send me a unit for 30 day evaluation.  This is getting interesting.

romaz said:

Yes, but there are potential challenges with impedance mismatches although the worst that can happen is it won't sound good.....  

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I do not understand why we do not have the same issues with DACs driving Headphones direct ?

Indeed DACs are also designed to drive High impedence Pré or Amps ! Not dedigned to drive low impedence Headphones !!

romaz said:

  Since we're rolling DACs at these levels where they rely so strongly on the best source possible, I think your comments are in line with what we all wish to hear.  Your OCD is definitely our gain and I for one am happy to ride the coattails of your hard work.  I would never have guessed a Win 8.1 box would outdo Win 2012 Server or Linux but this speaks volumes to how well engineered and executed this CAT server is.  What concerns me is that even without OS updates, PCs seem to get so polluted over time just by routine internet browsing and installation of poorly designed software.  I would almost prefer that CAT clamp down to some extent on the software that can be installed (perhaps software should go through a validation process) so that we consumers don't unwittingly install something we shouldn't and this may even apply to which version of JRiver is best.  It would be ideal if maybe they published a "best practices" journal every month as undoubtedly, there will be those who will screw things up.  It also strikes me as odd that the end-user should be the one to do all the legwork of getting something like Roon functional and working optimally but maybe they don't have the manpower to do all that you're doing.
 
Either way, you've piqued my curiosity once again.  While I still have my concerns about the "user experience" with the CAT, if you say it's significantly better than anything you've heard, and without a doubt you've heard a lot, I have to take notice.  I have e-mailed CAT for more information but I'm not sure how easy it will be for someone in the U.S. to review this unit.

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CAT drew the line at Win 8.1, Phil over at CA promotes his Audiophile Optimiser for Win Server 2012, there are reasons why that could sound better when comparing standard installs etc, however once the OS has been pruned and tweaked you end up at the same place, there is just less work to do with Win Server, less consumer bloatware to have to disable and or remove. I was happy to do the legwork to get Roon running, software guys have a different skill set and is this instance I had a different set of priorities (file compatibility, Roon's UI) and more time so while CAD were going to explore Roon anyway I wanted to see if I could get it to work before their schedule would have allowed. The user experience couldn't be better IMHO, the server boots straight into the normal Win desktop and Roon Server starts automatically as does DB poweramp for ripping. Being a music server the natural pollution of the OS shouldn't be an issue as its not being used to anything but playing music files. I can't imagine anyone buying a media server and then using it as their daily computer.
 
JRiver has had their time on the Sun, what Roon is doing is making browsing your collection a highly enjoyable past time and it will only get better.
 
I will describe how I have it setup in my system:
 
I never touch the music server save to insert CD for ripping. I start the iOS app on my iPad and browse my music and what Tidal has to offer. If my iPad is being used elsewhere I simply start the Mac OS X app and do the same thing from there. COuldn't be simpler or more enjoyable. There is nothing to fiddle with in Roon re SQ and I have no use for any other 3rd party audio endpoints like HQ Player, I prefer to let DAC's of this quality handle the files. I have an automated back clone running every morning on the entire music drive to Raid 5 NAS. I keep all my music files locally as they sound better that way. My CAT is configured with 3 SSD server class drives. One for the OS and other 2 for music files. CAD have pre-nsyalled and configured Team Viewer which makes support if needed simple.

romaz said:

  Just heard back from CAT (that was fast).  They are willing to send me a unit for 30 day evaluation.  This is getting interesting.

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Good, I spoke to Scott earlier, if you want Roon running on it better to let him know or I am happy to help you.

romaz said:

  Yes, but there are potential challenges ...................................Furthermore, passive preamps generally add nothing to the sound.  

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Thank you for your reply. Now I really want to try a passive preamp. This could be most interesting. Now back to the Nagra HD DAC, which I once heard at the Munich Highend. Is there a big difference in sound to the old Nagra CDP, which I once owned or is it still the same sound signature with more resolution?