rixsta said:

Thanks for that

I'm trying to find tye 64gb for sale now, not having much luck.

Click to expand...

As others have mentioned, 16gb plus SD card is the way to go. I don't know about the A10 series, but in Korea at least the A20 series only comes in 16gb with no earphones or 64gb with bundled NC IEMs. It is significantly more expensive than the 16gb version and is not good value IMO.

castleofargh said:

  after a full year of wondering, now at long last I know what that damn EU limitation is doing \o/.

Click to expand...

 
No load on max headphone-out.
 
I have an audio analyzer now and to be honest, the output looks really bad with anything beyond maybe 12~14 on the volume setting, particularly in harmonic distortion. Also a warning here: the line-out is pretty much just headphone-out set to 24 as they look almost identical in my audio analyzer. NEVER, and I repeat NEVER set your A10 volume to max / 30 when you double amp it, as it will completely distort the signal. Also, turning off HSEE (plus any EQ of course) actually improves the the distortion rather noticeably. Upsampling in A10 will actually make SQ worst, which isn't exactly what I've expected to see.

clieos said:

 

castleofargh said:

  after a full year of wondering, now at long last I know what that damn EU limitation is doing \o/.

Click to expand...

 
No load on max headphone-out.
 
I have an audio analyzer now and to be honest, the output looks really bad with anything beyond maybe 12~14 on the volume setting, particularly in harmonic distortion. Also a warning here: the line-out is pretty much just headphone-out set to 24 as they look almost identical in my audio analyzer. NEVER, and I repeat NEVER set your A10 volume to max / 30 when you double amp it, as it will completely distort the signal. Also, turning off HSEE (plus any EQ of course) actually improves the the distortion rather noticeably. Upsampling in A10 will actually make SQ worst, which isn't exactly what I've expected to see.

Click to expand...

oh come on, audio analyzer!!!!! please don't rub my face in the mud ^_^. I just got a super cheap multimeter, and felt like such a pro for 15mn yesterday checking how far off I was with my previous soundcard estimates calibrated with a sansa clip as voltage reference (like a boss). and what test tone I could use without the multimeter to show nonsense. better stay low apparently, figure it makes sense when those stuff in AC mainly deal with 50 or 60hz electrical signals.
 
anyway, what I found strange when messing around with the sony last year, was that I could clip(at least it sounded like clipping) it using the normalizer and some EQ, or other combos of DSPs with the line out, so I supposed it was a full scale output.
but headphoniaks measurements were showing more than 0.1% THD and IMD in any load at max loudness into the HO(strangely getting worse into higher loads, I've been used to seeing the opposite happen in general on DAPs???), so I had no illusion about the actual resolution of this little guy, but thank you for the info on how you measured it. it's how I checked the LO(because it's going into thousands of ohm anyway). now the max voltage of the HO "unloaded" I get 0.31V so my estimate was OK for the loudness difference.
 
still I keep using it more than any other DAP. I'm such a bad bad audiophile ^_^.

clieos said:

 

castleofargh said:

  after a full year of wondering, now at long last I know what that damn EU limitation is doing \o/.

Click to expand...

 
No load on max headphone-out.
 
I have an audio analyzer now and to be honest, the output looks really bad with anything beyond maybe 12~14 on the volume setting, particularly in harmonic distortion. Also a warning here: the line-out is pretty much just headphone-out set to 24 as they look almost identical in my audio analyzer. NEVER, and I repeat NEVER set your A10 volume to max / 30 when you double amp it, as it will completely distort the signal. Also, turning off HSEE (plus any EQ of course) actually improves the the distortion rather noticeably. Upsampling in A10 will actually make SQ worst, which isn't exactly what I've expected to see.

Click to expand...

I knew A10 had distoriton as i heard it on ythe high-range, Glad I moved to the ZX100

Spamming the ZX100, as usual.  Sigh...

zilch0md said:

  Spamming the ZX100, as usual.  Sigh...

Click to expand...

hahaha  I ain't need a HA-2

gerelmx1986 said:

 
I knew A10 had distoriton as i heard it on ythe high-range, Glad I moved to the ZX100

Click to expand...

 
Why do I have the feeling that, by the time I have the chance to measure ZX100 and you have moved on to ZX-XXX, you will say the same thing about ZX100? Hmm...  

gerelmx1986 said:

 
hahaha 

 I ain't need a HA-2 

 

Click to expand...

 
Oh come on.  Your ZX100 only puts out 15mW into 16 Ohms vs. the A17's 10mW into 16 Ohms.  
 
Anybody using IEMs or headphones efficient enough to perform there best on 15mW will sound just as good in terms of power-related attributes on 10mW.
 
If you don't need an HA-2, then the headphones you're using don't need the ZX100 vs. an A17 - again, in terms of power-related attributes (i.e. bass control and dynamics.)
 
The HA-2 puts out 300 mW into 16-Ohms. That's 20 times as much power as your ZX100 and 30 times as much power as an A17.  There are plenty of people who have headphones requiring this much power (and more) to deliver their best performance. 
 
There are a lot of things to like about the ZX100, but claiming that it negates the need for an external amp is true only for those who have IEMs or headphones that are extremely efficient - and it barely distinguishes itself from the A17 in terms of power.

clieos said:

 

gerelmx1986 said:

 
I knew A10 had distoriton as i heard it on ythe high-range, Glad I moved to the ZX100

Click to expand...

 
Why do I have the feeling that, by the time I have the chance to measure ZX100 and you have moved on to ZX-XXX, you will say the same thing about ZX100? Hmm...

 

Click to expand...

Maybe hehe, qho knows, as every body says.. "this is the best IEM/headpghone/DAP/<insert other audio euipment here> I've ever heard on my lifr..."

I don't believe that I have ever said something like that for an object/device. for a stevie wonder song, queen, a live acoustic band if I'm really dunk, a great audiobook, or if a pizza was telling a joke("this is the best pizza I've heard in my life!!!". now that's something I might say!!! ^_^).
but not for a device.

clieos said:

   
No load on max headphone-out.
 
I have an audio analyzer now and to be honest, the output looks really bad with anything beyond maybe 12~14 on the volume setting, particularly in harmonic distortion. Also a warning here: the line-out is pretty much just headphone-out set to 24 as they look almost identical in my audio analyzer. NEVER, and I repeat NEVER set your A10 volume to max / 30 when you double amp it, as it will completely distort the signal. Also, turning off HSEE (plus any EQ of course) actually improves the the distortion rather noticeably. Upsampling in A10 will actually make SQ worst, which isn't exactly what I've expected to see.

Click to expand...

 I have had my A17 doubled amped with a Fiio E12A and the A17 volume maxed out for months now and no distortion at all.  In fact I find I get the best sound with the A17 maxed vs a lower volume setting when double amping.  I believe Sony is using fixed volume output at max volume for use with an external amp as it does not have a true LO implementation.  Are you sure you are using your analyzer properly?  I think I will trust my ears thank you very much.

zilch0md said:

   
Oh come on.  Your ZX100 only puts out 15mW into 16 Ohms vs. the A17's 10mW into 16 Ohms.  
 
Anybody using IEMs or headphones efficient enough to perform there best on 15mW will sound just as good in terms of power-related attributes on 10mW.
 
If you don't need an HA-2, then the headphones you're using don't need the ZX100 vs. an A17 - again, in terms of power-related attributes (i.e. bass control and dynamics.)
 
The HA-2 puts out 300 mW into 16-Ohms. That's 20 times as much power as your ZX100 and 30 times as much power as an A17.  There are plenty of people who have headphones requiring this much power (and more) to deliver their best performance. 
 
There are a lot of things to like about the ZX100, but claiming that it negates the need for an external amp is true only for those who have IEMs or headphones that are extremely efficient - and it barely distinguishes itself from the A17 in terms of power.

Click to expand...

 I can use my A17 without an external amp and my B&W P5 S2 and get decent volume.  But adding the E12A gives me a fuller sound with more impact and a bigger sound stage.  Having that extra power in an external amp isn't just for added volume it can improve the listening experience as well.  I do find the A17 sound to be a little to cold and analytical and adding a warmer sounding amp can subdue those qualities and to me sounds better.  If find the A17 sound fatiguing  without using and external amp.

zilch0md said:

   
Oh come on.  Your ZX100 only puts out 15mW into 16 Ohms vs. the A17's 10mW into 16 Ohms.  
 
Anybody using IEMs or headphones efficient enough to perform there best on 15mW will sound just as good in terms of power-related attributes on 10mW.
 
If you don't need an HA-2, then the headphones you're using don't need the ZX100 vs. an A17 - again, in terms of power-related attributes (i.e. bass control and dynamics.)
 
The HA-2 puts out 300 mW into 16-Ohms. That's 20 times as much power as your ZX100 and 30 times as much power as an A17.  There are plenty of people who have headphones requiring this much power (and more) to deliver their best performance. 
 
There are a lot of things to like about the ZX100, but claiming that it negates the need for an external amp is true only for those who have IEMs or headphones that are extremely efficient - and it barely distinguishes itself from the A17 in terms of power.

Click to expand...

I had a chance to compare my A17 + E12A combo to a ZX100 (salesman sample) and I found the sound quality very close between the two.  Given that importing a ZX100 would cost me about $400.00 more than what I paid for my A17 + E12A combo I will take my combo and save the money every time.  To me the only advantage of the ZX100 is the extra 64 GB of storage which is not worth $400.00 and I get a lot more power with my E12A.  As I don't need the NC feature of the ZX100 since I don't use Sony headphones it is of no use to me. 

fish1050 said:

 
 I have had my A17 doubled amped with a Fiio E12A and the A17 volume maxed out for months now and no distortion at all.  In fact I find I get the best sound with the A17 maxed vs a lower volume setting when double amping.  I believe Sony is using fixed volume output at max volume for use with an external amp as it does not have a true LO implementation.  Are you sure you are using your analyzer properly?  I think I will trust my ears thank you very much.

Click to expand...

 
I guess it is never too old to use the  'you probably don't know what you are doing' argument . No offence taken, but let's look at some graphs.
 
 

First, let's look at what a typical 1kHz pure tone coming out of a decent DAP looks like. Here is FiiO X5II's headphone-out at volume 88, giving roughly the same voltage as A10's LO. Since it is a 1kHz pure tone, we shouldn't see any extra peaks beside the 1kHz (*and we didn't). Background noise is mostly under -120dBV, which is about -108dB from the 1kHz peak.
 
 

Here is A10 are volume 14/30. As I have commented before, this is where A10 behaves at its best. Pushing the volume up eventually will increase distortion.
 
 

This is how A10 LO looks like with all EQ and HSEE disable (same condition for all the following graphs) - notice there are a lot of unwanted small peaks after the 1kHz tone. We know these are harmonic distortion because they are mainly the multiplied frequencies (2kHz, 3kHz, 4kHz, etc) of our 1kHz fundamental frequency.
 
 

Here is what A10 looks like at 24/30 volume - notice the voltage output is almost the same as LO. Still have lots of harmonic distortion, but just a tiny bit cleaner than LO. Ironic actually.
 
 

This is how A10 looks like at 30/30 (maxed out) - rather horrible. You don't need to be an engineer to know why maxing out the volume is such a bad idea. Also take note that 30/30's voltage is in fact almost double that of LO.
 
 

Here is A10's LO feeding E12A (with a 47ohm load, set to roughly gain of 1 *no amplification*). E12A is doing such a great job and being so transparent that it reproduces the exact harmonic distortions from A10's LO, hence why this graph looks so alike to the LO graph above.
 
 
 
A10 at 24/30 feeding E12A, looking just like A10 at 24/30 without E12A. Again, E12A is doing its job as described.
 

A10 at 30/30 feeding E12A, same thing.
 
 

Just for good measure, this is A10's LO with HSEE enable, just to show you how much crap HSEE throws into the mix when you compared it to pure LO. Perhaps the only comforting news is that they are mainly even harmonic, which means they are not quite as offensive to the ear.

Amps can alter the sound completely, adding in a Fiio and you no longer have the SONY sound.
I think Fiio amps kill this players natural ability.