[ClieOS]

  ClieOS thanks a lot for the measurements,
Please last question, very interesting for me question regarding EQ impact on the SQ.
Could you please make a LO and volume 24/30 graphs of the frequency response and harmonic distortions with flat EQ but just Clear BASS enabled, lets say +2 points?

 
Forgot to enable the right channel in the audio analyzer when I took the measurement, but it is too troublesome to go back and redo all the measurement - so here is only the left channel, though the right channel should look very similar.
 

This is 24/30, Flat EQ with only ClearBass +2.
 
 

This is LO, Flat EQ with only ClearBass +2.
 
 

 

 

[pekingduck]

I have a Sony digital dock cable WMC-NWH10 and a FIIO L5 line out cable for sale here for those who are interested.

 

[raulromanjr]

Any thoughts on how this new FiiO LO cable outputs its signal? Will it improve things since you'll be able to limit LO volume through the player?
 
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.oyaide.com/fiio/l25.html

 

[raulromanjr]

Also, any thoughts on how the A10 family outputs to the PHA-1A? 

 

[gerelmx1986]

  Also, any thoughts on how the A10 family outputs to the PHA-1A? 

for me it looks the same as the old fiio L5, but looks way cooler

 

[castleofargh]

yeah the eye candy is impressive on the new line of fiio's LODs. I have a jack to jack and it looks so cool compared to the old all black one. (well I have grey A15, grey X1, and grey amp, so grey cable looks like I'm a fashion victim ^_^).

 

[gerelmx1986]

  yeah the eye candy is impressive on the new line of fiio's LODs. I have a jack to jack and it looks so cool compared to the old all black one. (well I have grey A15, grey X1, and grey amp, so grey cable looks like I'm a fashion victim ^_^).

LOL me too

 I like them gray, white or black, other colors depend on how the anodization or pigmentation process is done

 

[raulromanjr]

Well on the PHA-1A question I was more thinking of the cable that comes with the PHA-1A.
 
I'm thinking that Sony perhaps worked out the bugs to output a clean signal to the PHA-1A.
 

 

[raulromanjr]

And on the FiiO L-25, there are more that just changes to the way it looks according to the Oyaide page.
 
From google's poor translation:

 The connection to the dock connector, and avoid a variable resistance circuit of the player side.

高出力ドックからの転送によりアンプにピュアな音声信号を供給 To supply a pure audio signal to the amplifier by the transfer from the high-output dock​

1. プレイヤー側でも音量調節可能なボリューム可変仕様。 Volume Adjustable volume variable specification in player side.​
   さらに固定仕様より高い最大音量設定が可能。 Further possible higher maximum volume setting than the fixed specification.​

 

[fish1050]

  Amps can alter the sound completely, adding in a Fiio and you no longer have the SONY sound.
I think Fiio amps kill this players natural ability. 

Double amping as I am I am not bypassing the Sony amp section but more augmenting it.  I find without an amp the Sony sound stage is to small and less full than with an amp.  To each his own.

 

[fish1050]

   
I guess it is never too old to use the  'you probably don't know what you are doing' argument

. No offence taken, but let's look at some graphs.
 
 

First, let's look at what a typical 1kHz pure tone coming out of a decent DAP looks like. Here is FiiO X5II's headphone-out at volume 88, giving roughly the same voltage as A10's LO. Since it is a 1kHz pure tone, we shouldn't see any extra peaks beside the 1kHz (*and we didn't). Background noise is mostly under -120dBV, which is about -108dB from the 1kHz peak.
 
 

Here is A10 are volume 14/30. As I have commented before, this is where A10 behaves at its best. Pushing the volume up eventually will increase distortion.
 
 

This is how A10 LO looks like with all EQ and HSEE disable (same condition for all the following graphs) - notice there are a lot of unwanted small peaks after the 1kHz tone. We know these are harmonic distortion because they are mainly the multiplied frequencies (2kHz, 3kHz, 4kHz, etc) of our 1kHz fundamental frequency.
 
 

Here is what A10 looks like at 24/30 volume - notice the voltage output is almost the same as LO. Still have lots of harmonic distortion, but just a tiny bit cleaner than LO. Ironic actually.
 
 

This is how A10 looks like at 30/30 (maxed out) - rather horrible. You don't need to be an engineer to know why maxing out the volume is such a bad idea. Also take note that 30/30's voltage is in fact almost double that of LO.
 
 

Here is A10's LO feeding E12A (with a 47ohm load, set to roughly gain of 1 *no amplification*). E12A is doing such a great job and being so transparent that it reproduces the exact harmonic distortions from A10's LO, hence why this graph looks so alike to the LO graph above.
 
 

 
A10 at 24/30 feeding E12A, looking just like A10 at 24/30 without E12A. Again, E12A is doing its job as described.
 

A10 at 30/30 feeding E12A, same thing.
 
 

Just for good measure, this is A10's LO with HSEE enable, just to show you how much crap HSEE throws into the mix when you compared it to pure LO. Perhaps the only comforting news is that they are mainly even harmonic, which means they are not quite as offensive to the ear.

You can show all the graphs you want but if the distortion is occurring at frequencies out of the range of human hearing then does it really matter?   Distortion will always be present no matter what so the question is can you hear the distortion or not?  If you can't hear it then it is a problem and you should buy another product.  If you can't hear the distortion then all the graphs in the world won't matter.   In the almost 450 pages in this forum how many posts have their been about the sound being to distorted?
 
 
 

 

[fish1050]

   
Well said.
 
 
Were you using your (efficient) B&W P5 S2 when comparing the A17+E12A to the ZX100?  
 
A less efficient headphone would not have performed as well with the ZX100's 15mW into 16 Ohms vs. the E12A's 420mW into 16-Ohms.  

Yes I only have my P5 S2's right now and I use them for all my audio listening both on the go and at home on my home stereo

 

[fish1050]

  Sadly, for those of us who want to use less efficient headphones, every Sony Walkman (including the NWZ-A17 and ZX100, and no doubt Sony's future offerings) provides us with an excellent UI, file format support, and card reading features, that are accompanied by their "just good enough," proprietary sigma-delta DAC, and a very weak Line Out and Headphone Out (suitable only for efficient IEMs and headphones).
 
- b e c a u s e - 
 
They design their products to satisfy Joe Consumer, not Joe Audiophile. They must do this to get the sales volume required to cover the cost of research, development, manufacturing, and perhaps the very best quality control of any line of DAPs currently made.  Joe Consumer wants small, easily carried, pocketable mobile devices that can be recharged via USB jacks, with batteries that last a long time between charges. Those requirements are in direct contention with the high power output needed by many of Joe Audiophile's favorite headphones.
 
That's why I'm so very content with using the Sony NWZ-A17 with the aftermarket USB emulation cable, bypassing the Walkman's DAC and amp, to drive the Oppo HA-2's excellent ESS9018K2M DAC.  And when the HA-2 doesn't provide enough power for a given headphone, I use its Line Out to drive the iBasso PB2.  
 
We just can't have it all in one tiny package - not until battery technology takes a giant leap forward. 

If you are willing to put up with the vastly reduced battery life using an external DAC/Amp then go for it.  Personally giving up 75%+ battery life to bypass the DAC/Amp isn't worth it for me.  I think the A17 has a good DAC implementation and that the amp section is what is holding it back, for me anyway.  With just 8 hours battery life bypassing the DAC/Amp I think I would save the money on the HA-2 and get a higher end DAP all together.

 

[fish1050]

   
You've dropped a big sledge hammer on this topic. Thanks for all the effort!  I'm edified beyond answering the question at hand.

Distortion is only a problem if it occurs in the audible frequency range.  If you can't hear it then don't let it bother you and remember all audio devices have distortion.  It's like the old adage "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound".  If you can't hear the distortion then don't worry about it,  I'm not.

 

[fish1050]

Audio analysis graphs are only useful when comparing products!
 
I have been listening to my A17 with and without an external amp for over a year now and I am very happy with the sound I am hearing.  Now suddenly someone posts a few audio graphs and I am suppose to suddenly think my A17 sounds like crap.  Come on people really!
 
Audio analysis graphs are only valuable when used to compare competing products.  Show me these graphs and then show me graphs for competing products like the Fiio X3 II, iBasso DX80, maybe even the AK Jr. and heck throw in the PONO while you are at it.  I am willing to bet that with few exceptions the graphs will look pretty similar.  Keep in mind that these are small portable devices and only so much can be done to reduce distortion.  EVERY AUDIO DEVICE HAS DISTORTION all that matters is can you hear the distortion or not. 
 
If you feel your A17 doesn't have enough power then add a small amp like the E11K if want a small stack.  If you are willing to go a little bigger then the E12A is a good choice or the JDS Labs C5.  I have yet to find an external amp that drastically changes the sound of a DAP.  For the most part they are designed to be pretty transparent and should only alter the sound quality slightly.  Personally I don't hear a huge difference when listening to my A17 with and without an external amp.  I like the external amp more for what it adds to the listening experience like greater impact, slightly better detail, fuller sound, larger sound stage and maybe a touch warmer sound.
 
It generally takes about two weeks of continuous listening to adjust to a change in sound.  If you are going to try adding an external amp then give yourself sufficient time to live with any sound differences you hear.  Then decide if you are happy with how your setup sounds.