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Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff)

May 9, 2015 at 6:40 AM Post #5,041 of 6,500
 just put the Yggy back in stock and avalaible in EU and it will be fine.. 
tongue_smile.gif
 
 
May 9, 2015 at 7:14 AM Post #5,042 of 6,500
c.c.s. said:
It was just a t-shirt, you guys. Get over it.
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Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar ... many other times it's a d*ck symbol.
Same for t-shirts.

P.S.
I know that comparing cigars to tshirts is kinda dumb crazy but some guy above seems very convinced that his googleshares to DACs comparison makes total sense ... so I take it that any shiit that comes through one's mind is fair game :D
 
May 9, 2015 at 7:37 AM Post #5,043 of 6,500
baldr said:
  OK, as the co-founder of Schiit and the architect of Schiit Digital Gear Policy, let me confirm that the prior mentioned shirt exists, and indeed I wore it at the last Can Jam.  Yes it harsh and irreverent, but what do you expect from me?  At the same Can Jam, I also explained that those who bought into our upgradable products would be eventually be rewarded.  So don't get rid of them.  All good things come to those who wait.  My Dad used to say that.
My real position on delta sigma is that it is cheap compared to multibit.  Any moron with marginal reading skills could design one.  You do not need expensive R&D.  That said, we could not build $100-$150 multibit DACs without delta sigma parts.  We build those DACs because few others seem interested in building low cost, low margin gear.  Our Modis and ubers kick ass at that level.  I have built dozens of them for my own companies and other companies as a consultant as well over the last thirty years or so.  So this qualifies me at a minimum as a very experienced moron, and a whore as well. 
So my future is multibit - it is not easy, requires R&D chops, particularly if you don't want to stoop to the level of Parks-McClellan non imaging buyable filter chips, which boring as they are, are still an improvement over the complete dogschiit delta sigma filters,either with or without extra filters of dubious value.  We've got the original megaburrito filter, inhouse designed, which is the only time and frequency domain optimized one which retains all of the original samples.  That is where the uncanny imaging exclusive to us comes from in the Yggy.  Just as it took years top figure out the original Theta stuff, it has taken years again to update to 2015 available parts, NOT the few remaining PCM1704s.
To repeat, in the arena of multi thousand dollar gear, delta sigma is cheap to buy, cheap to design, cheap period.  The technology is progressive, ubiquitous, and insipid.  Anyone who incorporates delta sigma in a such a design is selling multi thousand dollar sneakers with gold threaded shoelaces.
Eventually, we will filter this tech down to the level of all Schiit upgradable DACs.  Any and all current owners of these DACs have been helping this design effort and will be offered reduced price upgrades... when we get there.  I am personally grateful to each and every Gungnir and Bifrost owner who has trusted and partnered with me so far on this journey.
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Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable reply.
First of all i have to declare my complete ignorance on digital electronics.
I am sincerely shocked by the scenario depicted.  And i have no reason not to trust your positions. 
I am thinking now to all the pros in the recording industries, always searching for the utmost fidelity with price no object
and then playing with units flawed by design, or at least with intrinsic decisive limitations.
Some of them are regarded even as guru.  
I have bought one dac, that i do not mention, recommended by one of these famous recording engineers. Yes ... it is delta-sigma 
frown.gif

While it is true that their main task is to record, they must also monitor very precisely  what they have recorded i guess. 
I am very very confused indeed because as an ignorant i have to trust someone expert on the matter. 
But now i have found a very valuable reference.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,  gino   
 
May 9, 2015 at 7:46 AM Post #5,044 of 6,500
baldr said:
OK, as the co-founder of Schiit and the architect of Schiit Digital Gear Policy, let me confirm that the prior mentioned shirt exists, and indeed I wore it at the last Can Jam.  Yes it harsh and irreverent, but what do you expect from me?  At the same Can Jam, I also explained that those who bought into our upgradable products would be eventually be rewarded.  So don't get rid of them.  All good things come to those who wait.  My Dad used to say that.

My real position on delta sigma is that it is cheap compared to multibit.  Any moron with marginal reading skills could design one.  You do not need expensive R&D.  That said, we could not build $100-$150 multibit DACs without delta sigma parts.  We build those DACs because few others seem interested in building low cost, low margin gear.  Our Modis and ubers kick ass at that level.  I have built dozens of them for my own companies and other companies as a consultant as well over the last thirty years or so.  So this qualifies me at a minimum as a very experienced moron, and a whore as well. 

So my future is multibit - it is not easy, requires R&D chops, particularly if you don't want to stoop to the level of Parks-McClellan non imaging buyable filter chips, which boring as they are, are still an improvement over the complete dogschiit delta sigma filters,either with or without extra filters of dubious value.  We've got the original megaburrito filter, inhouse designed, which is the only time and frequency domain optimized one which retains all of the original samples.  That is where the uncanny imaging exclusive to us comes from in the Yggy.  Just as it took years top figure out the original Theta stuff, it has taken years again to update to 2015 available parts, NOT the few remaining PCM1704s.

To repeat, in the arena of multi thousand dollar gear, delta sigma is cheap to buy, cheap to design, cheap period.  The technology is progressive, ubiquitous, and insipid.  Anyone who incorporates delta sigma in a such a design is selling multi thousand dollar sneakers with gold threaded shoelaces.

Eventually, we will filter this tech down to the level of all Schiit upgradable DACs.  Any and all current owners of these DACs have been helping this design effort and will be offered reduced price upgrades... when we get there.  I am personally grateful to each and every Gungnir and Bifrost owner who has trusted and partnered with me so far on this journey.
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What a lovely post! I am a happy owner of the Gungnir, which is an outstanding iteration of the delta sigma chip, and I look forward to your upgrades.

Even given the limitations of delta sigma, the Bifrost and Gungnir are beautiful, natural sounding DACs.
 
May 9, 2015 at 8:13 AM Post #5,046 of 6,500
May 9, 2015 at 8:33 AM Post #5,048 of 6,500
@baldr- Love my Yggy, love my Gungnir (it's great for a bedroom system), when can I buy one of those controversial T-shirts?
 
Most of all, thank you for sharing your insights into the design of your products, and more so for the wonderful sonic results you achieve.
 
May 9, 2015 at 9:49 AM Post #5,049 of 6,500
I also love the Schiit gear I have owned in the past, but I really don't understand why anybody would be so vocal publically as a business person. I have been in sales all of my life, and one of the guiding principles is to avoid negative selling. I as a customer don't like when a salesperson pitches their products by aggressively putting down the offerings of others. I also find this a curious departure from the Schiit FAQ which clearly states they do not compare their products to other products.
 
Calling other designs insipid and garbage is really rather disconcerting to me. You can't on one hand say our DS designs are decent enough that we would put our name on them, but the rest are garbage. That just doesn't feel convincing. I would have to assume that some DS can be pretty darn good, I know my Gungnir was, and I'm quite sure there are other excellent designs out there. Regardless of technical merit alone, I feel confident that in blind listening tests some people will actually like DS designs, at least the better implementations. While I respect a strong stance and focus on design philosophy, I think it makes poor business sense to publically represent a position on something like this. I just don't get it, Schiit gear is fantastic sounding, people love it, this community in particular seems to love it, I love it, so why the negative selling approach? It can only turn some people off of Schiit and I have actually heard from one person who has been quite honest that indeed this negative tone has really made them back off from Schiit on an emotional level.
 
I'm posting this in what I hope is a respectful tone, and not a confrontational one in an effort to encourage Schiit to consider the public impact of this style of dialogue. While I know Mike isn't marketing as opposed to being honest about his opinions, and I get that, but ultimately when a business person speaks about the marketplace they operate within, it can only reflect on their business. I will continue to purchase and enjoy Schiit products, but from a customer standpoint I would enjoy less acrimony and rhetoric about design philosophy and more conversation about the sound, the lovely sound that flows from inspired design and build.
 
May 9, 2015 at 10:11 AM Post #5,050 of 6,500
I think they've got their schiit together (wouldn't it be funny if the word had to be pronounced in the same manner as Clay Davis, in The Wire?). 
 
Anyway, I think that they know what they're doing; maybe it's part frustration with the status quo; multi-bit chips are rare; the industry hasn't worked to get the best out of them; it's just sold out with D-S. And also, there maybe, just maybe, some marketing ploy going on there; what did Baldr mention about their future plans? 
rolleyes.gif

 
May 9, 2015 at 10:12 AM Post #5,051 of 6,500
Hi instead i think very differently
How can a serious designer aimed to design and build a TOP dac settle for a dac chip that he knows to be not TOP ?
that even with the best tricks will be intrisically limited ??? 
This is intellectual prostitution really. This is the win of the marketeers !
I like instead the Schiit approach ... they have screened the parts market without prejudice, identifying a dac chip not intended for audio (words of the AD people), very expensive but with exceptional potential for audio.
This is extremely honest, serious approach and it deserves to be praised.
Of course a TOP dac cannot be cheap.
So they have addressed the lower priced units market with products with excellent sound quality/price ratio. Products that show their know-how even within the obvious price constraints.
And i can also understand their reaction.
This said ... but the Asgard ,,, must be really biased so high ? 
biggrin.gif

even to drive a silly HP ?
why not put a trimmer ???
i am using an HP that needs almost no power to make loud noise ... 
Thanks and regards, gino 
 
May 9, 2015 at 10:24 AM Post #5,052 of 6,500
ginetto61 said:
  Hi instead i think very differently
How can a serious designer aimed to design and build a TOP dac settle for a dac chip that he knows to be not TOP ?
that even with the best tricks will be intrisically limited ??? 
This is intellectual prostitution really. This is the win of the marketeers !
I like instead the Schiit approach ... they have screened the parts market without prejudice, identifying a dac chip not intended for audio (words of the AD people), very expensive but with exceptional potential for audio.
This is extremely honest, serious approach and it deserves to be praised.
 
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I'm not talking about which technological approach is better; frankly I lack the knowledge to evaluate beyond using my ears. What I am talking about is how one publically represents their company, and on that issue as Mike feels strongly about the DAC chips, I feel as strongly that respectful, toned down dialogue is always better. Be as vocal as you like with family and friends (although they may secretly not like it either), but I'm saying in public negative dialogue breeds negative results. Just look at this thread as a small sample. Beyond myself, there have been a few others who have intonated they don't really feel comfortable with the negative and aggressive stance taken against DS. I just don't see the upside of doing this for Schiit. Their gear has always been the best way to get the message across as far as I can tell. Mike is most certainly a genius engineer with a trail of achievements that are almost difficult to believe. Public relations, not so much. Sometimes staying on script is good.
 
May 9, 2015 at 10:39 AM Post #5,053 of 6,500
sonic defender said:
 
I'm not talking about which technological approach is better; frankly I lack the knowledge to evaluate beyond using my ears. What I am talking about is how one publically represents their company, and on that issue as Mike feels strongly about the DAC chips, I feel as strongly that respectful, toned down dialogue is always better. Be as vocal as you like with family and friends (although they may secretly not like it either), but I'm saying in public negative dialogue breeds negative results. Just look at this thread as a small sample. Beyond myself, there have been a few others who have intonated they don't really feel comfortable with the negative and aggressive stance taken against DS. I just don't see the upside of doing this for Schiit. Their gear has always been the best way to get the message across as far as I can tell. Mike is most certainly a genius engineer with a trail of achievements that are almost difficult to believe. Public relations, not so much. Sometimes staying on script is good.
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Hi i see your point.  But still between a polite idiot or manipulator and a rude genius i prefer the company of the second without any doubt.
I knew a surgeon used to curse during operations. He was extremely talented in his work.  A long list of successful interventions. 
Then there was another one extremely social and polite, nicknamed "the terminator". Not so successful of course. 
Who would you choose for an intervention ?
If the dac is really good i would bear also the insults ... i am not joking.   
I want this bloody depth of soundstage even with digital .... i want it and i will get it one day  !
Thanks and regards,  gino  
 
May 9, 2015 at 10:55 AM Post #5,054 of 6,500
ginetto61 said:
   
Hi i see your point.  But still between a polite idiot or manipulator and a rude genius i prefer the company of the second without any doubt.
I knew a surgeon used to curse during operations. He was extremely talented in his work.  A long list of successful interventions. 
Then there was another one extremely social and polite, nicknamed "the terminator". Not so successful of course. 
Who would you choose for an intervention ?
If the dac is really good i would bear also the insults ... i am not joking.   
I want this bloody depth of soundstage even with digital .... i want it and i will get it one day  !
Thanks and regards,  gino  
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I hear you brother, I really do, and for me, I will still purchase Schiit gear as I respect the gear. However, being outspoken can cross over into being rude, and there is no reason to ever allow that to happen for a business. Business history is rife with PR gaffes that end up being quite costly for the company. Mike I guess would be the first to admit he isn't a PR person, I get the feeling that Jason is more comfortable and well suited for that role. It is frankly none of my business how Schiit elects to conduct itself in public, but I will continue to be perplexed by this type of public behavior from a company that I assume wants to continue to grow their business to one extent or another.
 
May 9, 2015 at 12:12 PM Post #5,055 of 6,500
On the other hand I would not be surprised some/many may find some naked honesty and good humour refreshing in a world full of PR/PC. And in the spirit of a company called "Schiit".

Also based on what I heard I actually do think he is being honest and quite right. And I do not, for a minute, believe there is too much honesty out there, in audio in particular. :)
 
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