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post #1651 of 1790
A little story of a German hifi guy and his path:

Once upon a time zer was sis German who love audio. He was a very scientific based person. On the hifi-forum in Germany he was known to jump into any cable (and other things like amp sound / sounding and digital vs vinyl et cetera) and demand proof of cable sound. He would argue for pages and pages trying to disperse "audio myths". He was well respected and loved. Important to note is that the forum in question is a very "realistic" forum. When people jump in, mostly new guys, and talk about cables and interconnects, they always get educated quick. It is so realistic that subjects worthy of discussion, like amp sounding, usually don't get very far anymore.

Fast forward 6 years. Today he is the editor in chief of Germanys biggest "audiophile" forum. His account is very inactive. The latest cover of the magazine showcases an article about usb cable tests. Now, bear in mind we are talking about digital transmission, jitter values way below the threshold of human hearing capabilities and so on and so forth.

The test goes on and the testers "hear" differences in the usb cables, with the most expensive getting a 9 out of 10 rating. This is the "best sounding cable". They also state that they couldn't actually measure the differences heard, but the will "keep at it". Note that there wasn't a 10 out of 10 cable. smily_headphones1.gif

So why did I tell this story? Well, it just goes to show that the audio hobby is a marketplace and people are trying to sell things. So when a new audio person enters the hobby, they mostly start out reading magazine reviews. Thus, they are already biased before entering any forums. They rate a magazines opinion much higher than any "typical uninformed users" opinion and as such, a flame war starts.
Edited by ev13wt - 7/7/13 at 7:04pm
post #1652 of 1790

And when somebody has been repairing analogue electronic equipment for 50 years -Has read ""hi- fi""" mags since the 50s and electronic mags the same length  of time . Followed the rise of hi-fi and built much audio equipment over many decades had arguments with your "god" --DS-- in which others  agreed with me  that he was arrogant/condescending/and rude. Even his teacher wrote into EE apologizing for ---Quote--letting him loose on the world--end quote  only HIS designs were """perfect"" in HIS eyes---the """Blameless""" power amp . Would brook  no opposition -younger ADEs who came up with non-standard power  amp designs -which in my eyes were ground breaking in their unusual design were torn  to pieces bit by bit -Why because they weren't up to HIS specs. of dis.=0.001 % . And yet in 2013 MANY audio  designs have 20DB and more WORSE than his-Take tube design as an example- and sound GREAT!  so his """philosophy """ is faulty. So far I am the only one who is not afraid of him but MANY back me up "behind the scenes". 

post #1653 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

 And yet in 2013 MANY audio  designs have 20DB and more WORSE than his-Take tube design as an example- and sound GREAT!  so his """philosophy """ is faulty. So far I am the only one who is not afraid of him but MANY back me up "behind the scenes". 

Ignoring the tirade about D. Self, it might be useful to know that tube amps with worse measurements sound GREAT! because of their particular colorations.  They have measurably lower fidelity to the input signal.  Yet sometimes sound subjectively better.  It is due to the particular colorations of tube designs.  So it doesn't show that very low distortion amps being considered audibly transparent is a faulty philosophy.  If one studies the psychophysics of human hearing, one might learn that. 

post #1654 of 1790

Most equipment """sounds""" better than we can hear. That's why perception thresholds are just as important as equipment specs.

post #1655 of 1790

The tirade against D,Self is NOTHING to his tirade against John Lindsay Hood in the pages of Electronic World in which he castigated him for his choosing   Mos-Fets as  apposed to BJTs . He went  on for article after article till John  was forced to reply but he was too much of a gentleman  to give out what was given to him and now he comments on John on a web page using his prestige as I notice many others do as Johns family don't sue. He cut young blokes to pieces and yet HE used a STANDARD Linn design to which he made variations unlike the other  design engineers who came up with   ground breaking circuits BUT weren't in D. Self's eyes up to scratch. So he pulled them apart on paper --not nice--I am the only person who tells the truth when it comes to him. Open up the pages of EW from 1985 up to 2006 and you will find I am telling the truth!   

post #1656 of 1790

What the hell's Doug have to do with this discussion anyway?

 

se

post #1657 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

The tirade against D,Self is NOTHING to his tirade against John Lindsay Hood in the pages of Electronic World in which he castigated him for his choosing   Mos-Fets as  apposed to BJTs . He went  on for article after article till John  was forced to reply but he was too much of a gentleman  to give out what was given to him and now he comments on John on a web page using his prestige as I notice many others do as Johns family don't sue. He cut young blokes to pieces and yet HE used a STANDARD Linn design to which he made variations unlike the other  design engineers who came up with   ground breaking circuits BUT weren't in D. Self's eyes up to scratch. So he pulled them apart on paper --not nice--I am the only person who tells the truth when it comes to him. Open up the pages of EW from 1985 up to 2006 and you will find I am telling the truth!   


Look, we aren't discussing or interested in some issue you have with Douglas Self.  Unless he posts here it has no place.  Your tirade against him or his against someone else on some other forum or publication really adds nothing to this. 

post #1658 of 1790

I think no response is the best response

post #1659 of 1790

I can't think of anything worse right now than thumbing through 21 years worth of magazines to confirm some loon's incoherent babble. Anyways, let's get back on topic about how cables are snake oil.

post #1660 of 1790

This is something that I have noticed over the years at headfi. All the population here can be segmented into these categories.

 

Person 1:

This person believes in cables and says that it makes their system better. When he talks about cables he most often, calmly, not rudely, shares his opinions/finding with others.

 

Person 2:

This dood doesn't believe in cables. When he talks about cables, he most often just rips into anyone who actively states that they believe in cables. Rude. Disrespectful. Pretty nasty. 

 

Person 3:

Someone who believes/doesn't in cables, but never really says much about it. 

 

 

 

It's similar to those that believe/don't in burn in. 

My point is, for those that find themselves in the second segment - why do you guys feel the need to get so worked up about stuff like this? I just find it interesting, that's all. 

 

 

 

 

Just for the record, for me the most important things as far as cables go are for it to be of ideal length, maximum flexibility, low price and free from physical defects (e.g. loose connectors)


Edited by CantScareMe - 7/10/13 at 2:41pm
post #1661 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantScareMe View Post

This is something that I have noticed over the years at headfi. All the population here can be segmented into these categories.

 

Person 1:

This person believes in cables and says that it makes their system better. When he talks about cables he most often, calmly, not rudely, shares his opinions/finding with others.

 

Person 2:

This dood doesn't believe in cables. When he talks about cables, he most often just rips into anyone who actively states that they believe in cables. Rude. Disrespectful. Pretty nasty. 

 

Person 3:

Someone who believes/doesn't in cables, but never really says much about it. 

 

 

 

It's similar to those that believe/don't in burn in. 

My point is, for those that find themselves in the second segment - why do you guys feel the need to get so worked up about stuff like this? I just find it interesting, that's all. 

 

 

 

 

Just for the record, for me the most important things as far as cables go are for it to be of ideal length, maximum flexibility, low price and free from physical defects (e.g. loose connectors)

no clue, i'm in number 3, although there should be 2 more categories

 

one, a skeptic that still has no opinions, the other is one that believes but dismisses overwhelming evidence against his belief.

post #1662 of 1790
It seems to me that most cable faithfuls are quite calm and nice. The only ones who aren't are the ones who march into Sound Science with a chip on their shoulder ready for a fight. The Sound Science regulars generally get blamed for their bad behavior. Thankfully, those troublemakers are few.
post #1663 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post

It seems to me that most cable faithfuls are quite calm and nice. The only ones who aren't are the ones who march into Sound Science with a chip on their shoulder ready for a fight. The Sound Science regulars generally get blamed for their bad behavior. Thankfully, those troublemakers are few.

 

Fair enough.

I just see too much ganging up on someone who says a cable has changed their system for the better (regardless of whatever reasoning the give). Monotonous.  

post #1664 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantScareMe View Post

 

Fair enough.

I just see too much ganging up on someone who says a cable has changed their system for the better (regardless of whatever reasoning the give). Monotonous.  


Well, if you are of the group that know of no known measurable difference in cables, and therefore don't see the possibility for them to sound different what does that leave?

 

I have as have others been told how rude it is to say someone is wrong.  There are not many excellent ways to say that. No matter how courteously one tries the reaction is often not that good by the other party.  But if you are trying to be rational, reasonable, and scientific the evidence says cables can't sound different (within your normal uses).  In cases where the cable can effect sound (capacitance interacting with cartridges on a tonearm for instance) you find it is down to LCR effects.

 

So were you of the firm opinion cables don't sound different, have good technical reason for thinking so, have the experience others quite typically accuse you of not having, and still have that opinion what approach can you take?

 

I have tried many variations, and found none that work well.    And yes, among friends, acquaintances, enemies, supporters or whatever, not everything is relative.  Not every opinion is equally grounded, and in fact sometimes the facts say you are wrong.  With cables and so much in audio it always seems to come down to "trust your ears" vs those who aren't willing to trust only their ears because they know how they can give you incorrect or even illusory perceptions.  Not that hearing always is wrong just that it can be fooled. 

 

As for the ganging up on someone, it seems to me much more often the ganging up is by those who hear great differences in cables most everywhere other than this sub-forum.  Don't know of forums where having the opinion cables sound different can get you banned or your comments deleted (with only one exception I am aware of).  Having the obverse opinion, can, has, and will get you banned from a number of places among the online fora. 

post #1665 of 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude View Post

Don't know of forums where having the opinion cables sound different can get you banned or your comments deleted (with only one exception I am aware of). 

 

Neither do I.

 

But I know of a forum where having the opinion cables sound different pretty much gets you slated...

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