Android phones and USB DACs

zolom said:

  I have the LH Labs Geek Out 450mw. works fine when connected to my win7 laptop.
Currently there is an issue with Android phones (mine is S4) even with UAPP, hope it may be solved soon by a Geek firmwate update.
 
I did encounter a serious problem though:

1. When connecting to my S4 via a Y-OTG cable http://www.tvc-mall.com/details/Micro-USB-Host-OTG-Cable-with-Micro-USB-Power-for-Samsung-i9100-i9300-i9220-i9250-MCH-382/ and providing power to the Geek Out, via an external battery (I usually use to charge my phone); my Shure SE846 earphones are getting rather HOT (also happens with other iems). When connecting the Geek Out and phone via an OTG cable to a USB hub and supplying power (from the battery) to the HUB, all is normal (nothing gets hot).

 

1. Can you explain what's the issue with the Y-OTG cable?

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As far as I know, according to the USB Battery Charging 1.2 specification, a USB-Y cable is as follows:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/2580#post_9598490
 

 
An Android USB OTG device is configured to USB host mode supplying or drawing power, or USB peripheral mode by ACA/OTG software/hardware measuring the value of the ID resistance of the USB interface.
 
According to the value of the ID resistance:
. the Android device should act as a USB host, interwork with the USB DAC acting as a USB peripheral, and supply power to the bus-powered USB DAC
. the Android device should act as a standalone USB peripheral, and draw power from an external battery
. the Android device should act as a USB peripheral, interwork with a USB host, and draw power from an external power source
. the Android device should act as a USB host, interwork with the USB DAC acting as a USB peripheral, and draw power from an external battery or another external power supply.
 
The issue is that Samsung, like every other Android device maker, uses a standard USB concept (i.e. USB ACA), uses standard USB components (i.e. USB OTG – ACA components), but doesn't use standard ACA resistance values!
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/2595#post_9601384
 
More, Samsung has another proprietary USB ACA mode: analog USB audio out with some value of the ID resistance.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/450#post_8764207
 
So, everything could happen if the value of the ID resistance is not one of the Samsung values.
 

Quote:

zolom said:

 

1. Is there a recommended cable to use? I do not want to have the USB hub, for better portability.

 

Click to expand...

 
I think it is better in your use case to get a USB-OTG Y cable from Elijah Audio: it has a price, but the guy seems to be very meticulous.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/4455#post_10427004
 

 
The value of the ID resistance is 0 ohm (i.e. ID grounded, a standard / Samsung value): the Android device is configured as USB host, but it doesn't supply power to the USB DAC which drains power from the external battery.

cattlethief said:

  I agree UAPP sounds superb there isnt another app that competes including the overhyped Neutron!

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hoekeat said:

 
you guys saying that UAPP alter the output sound? or what are you guys implying?

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I don't think UAPP alters the output sound: contrary to other players, it doesn't have any audio-manipulated feature (equalizer, ...).
 
I was pleasantly surprised with the great playback sound quality of the USB Audio Recorder PRO (UARP) app, and I was not alone.
 
"Thanks for the compliment. Note that the purpose was for recording" [UARP developer]
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/1080#post_8969083
 
It means that the playback code of UARP (and now UAPP) should be minimal: I think it should be one of the secrets of its great sound quality.
 
 


 
I think another winning point is its architecture: it doesn't use the Android media player framework.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/638387/best-android-music-player-app/240#post_10120655
 
" My USB audio code completely bypasses Android to get rid of all its problems and talks to Linux directly using file descriptors." [UARP developer]
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/1080#post_8968882
 
First, the Android media player framework is not adapted to audiophile USB audio because Google doesn't yet support USB audio.
http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=24614&sort=-stars&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Owner%20Summary%20Stars
 
And if the following diagram of current implementation related by a USB audio insider is true, it is a real mess, and it also involves a lot of processing overhead.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/2985
 
 
 

 
But, more than anything, trust your ears!

deltasun said:

Hi DanBa, thanks for this, but can you snap a pic of your actual set up, all the components and connections. I'm probably gonna pick these up, but wanted what the whole enchilada looks like. Thanks!

Click to expand...

 
Some pics of my setup:
 
Galaxy Note 3 using UAPP >> USB OTG adapter cable + regular USB cable >> self-powered Belkin 4-port USB hub powered by a Veho Pebble battery pack >
>> regular USB cable provided by the USB DAC maker >> ODAC >> Neco V3 amp >> Mad Dog headphones
>> regular USB cable provided by the USB hard drive maker >> Western Digital 2TB My Passport portable USB hard drive
 
Galaxy Note 3 using UAPP >> micro USB OTG plug to standard A receptacle USB adapter cable + standard A plug to mini B plug regular USB cable (the Belkin hub has a mini B receptacle for the upstream port) >> self-powered Belkin 4-port USB hub powered by a Veho Pebble battery pack >>
>> standard A plug to mini B plug regular USB cable provided by the USB DAC maker (the ODAC has a mini B receptacle)  >> ODAC >> Neco V3 amp >> Mad Dog headphones
>> standard A plug to USB 3.0 micro B plug regular USB cable provided by the USB hard drive maker >> Western Digital 2TB My Passport portable USB hard drive
 
From left to right: Mad Dog headphones, Neco V3 amp, ODAC, WD My Passport hard drive, Veho Pebble battery pack, Galaxy Note3
At the bottom: Belkin 4-port USB hub
 

 

 

m-i-c-k-e-y said:

  Geek Out 1000 confirm with Note LTE (using USB 3.0 OTG, usb 2.0 OTG works too)
 
UAPP w/ DXD
 

 
 

Click to expand...

 
Thanks!
 
Apparently, UAPP can play DSD over PCM (DoP)-encoded files (i.e. DoP-encoded FLAC files) and the DoP can be decoded by the Geek Out.
http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/85536726-post11.html
http://www.head-fi.org/t/680853/sony-nwz-zx1-35th-walkman-anniversary-model/3645#post_10252212
http://www.sonore.us/apps.html

danba said:

Some pics of my setup:

Galaxy Note 3 using UAPP >> USB OTG adapter cable + regular USB cable >> self-powered Belkin 4-port USB hub powered by a Veho Pebble battery pack >
>> regular USB cable provided by the USB DAC maker >> ODAC >> Neco V3 amp >> Mad Dog headphones
>> regular USB cable provided by the USB hard drive maker >> Western Digital 2TB My Passport portable USB hard drive

Galaxy Note 3 using UAPP >> micro USB OTG plug to standard A receptacle USB adapter cable + standard A plug to mini B plug regular USB cable (the Belkin hub has a mini B receptacle for the upstream port) >> self-powered Belkin 4-port USB hub powered by a Veho Pebble battery pack >>
>> standard A plug to mini B plug regular USB cable provided by the USB DAC maker (the ODAC has a mini B receptacle)  >> ODAC >> Neco V3 amp >> Mad Dog headphones
>> standard A plug to USB 3.0 micro B plug regular USB cable provided by the USB hard drive maker >> Western Digital 2TB My Passport portable USB hard drive

From left to right: Mad Dog headphones, Neco V3 amp, ODAC, WD My Passport hard drive, Veho Pebble battery pack, Galaxy Note3
At the bottom: Belkin 4-port USB hub

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Click to expand...

Thanks, man...I wanted to see how they all came together. That is awesome!

Just bought a 2TB WD also, so now I gotta get the hub and the battery pack.

danba said:

   
Thanks!
 
Apparently, UAPP can play DSD over PCM (DoP)-encoded files (i.e. DoP-encoded FLAC files) and the DoP can be decoded by the Geek Out.
http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/85536726-post11.html
http://www.head-fi.org/t/680853/sony-nwz-zx1-35th-walkman-anniversary-model/3645#post_10252212
http://www.sonore.us/apps.html

Click to expand...

 
Thank you will try it!

zolom said:

   
What power source do use for the Geek? is it a battery, a usb wall charger or PC usb slot?
Did you encounter any heating of the earphones?
 
Thanks

Click to expand...

I don't use a Geek. I've used both a wall wart as well as a battery with my OTG splitter cable with my GS3.  I've neer had a problem which caused heating of an IEM or headphone. That heating thing would have me worried. I suspect there is a DC offset getting to your IEMs.

stand said:

  Most if not all DAPs are computers as they have micro-processors in them. It's just a question of how good or bad the software is. I find the iPod Touch 5G to be quite good, only that it cannot take a micro-SD card so you can get it with up to 64 GB internal. Its built in DAC and Amp are surprisingly good, the software is very good as you can get Neutron (recently) on iOS. There are other good player apps on it as well, in the past not so much. It is small, light weight, easily attaches to external DACs and its USB Audio implementation is far better than anything I've seen on Android and I'm a big Android fan and can admit this. You can also stream from the device as well as listen to streaming services, even Google All Access.

Click to expand...

 
 

danba said:

   
A lot of stuff have a microprocessor chip inside, like my smart card. And I can't use my Visa card as a general purpose computer as I do with a PC or with a Galaxy Note3.
My Android-powered Note3 is a general purpose computer because any consumer can download a third-party program like UAPP or a third-party developer like the UAPP developer can write and enhance his own music player program.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-squared-paper-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/3330#post_10475578
The AK240 DAP targeted by Bmichels is powered by Android but it is not a general purpose computer because it is not intended to be sold as a computer but only as a DAP: a consumer can't download UAPP and a third-party developer can't write a single line of code.
DAP makers used to have all their products under control; hence almost all DAP are closed systems.
 
 
 
 
Interesting.
Which Android did you compare? What are the different hard/soft components involved in the comparison?

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I didn't say general purpose computer, these are still computers or embedded systems. Although Android does have Linux underneath and if you root the device you can get access to shell. Just because a particular DAP is closed, does not mean that is not a computer. You might say that the Samsung Galaxy Player was a general purpose computer, too bad the DAP functionality was a flop and they abandoned the product. It was way underpowered anyway.
When you say, "Which Android did you compare," did you mean which version or device? Which leads to clarifying the last question as well, hard and soft?

Hi DanBa, you seem to have probably tested out the most combination out there, do you know why exactly on this Video, it seems to be working over OTG without any kind of third party software?
It seem to be even not the latest Android (think it's 4.2.2 regarding the looks).
 
I know that it isn't a Dragonfly, so might it be possible that it has something to do with the DAC used in this Video?
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt0E62X0ZSE
 
 
Regards.

I have an HRT Microstreamer on the way. Looking forward to it.

stand said:

  I didn't say general purpose computer, these are still computers or embedded systems. Although Android does have Linux underneath and if you root the device you can get access to shell. Just because a particular DAP is closed, does not mean that is not a computer.
 

Click to expand...

 
We don't have the same vocabulary.
For me as well as for Wiki, "a computer is a general purpose device that can be programmed to carry out a set of arithmetic or logical operations automatically. Since a sequence of operations can be readily changed, the computer can solve more than one kind of problem."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer
 
 

stand said:

  When you say, "Which Android did you compare," did you mean which version or device? Which leads to clarifying the last question as well, hard and soft?
 

Click to expand...

 
As Google doesn't support USB audio, a (Google) Android version is useless.
https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=24614&sort=-stars&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Owner%20Summary%20Stars
 
"I find the iPod Touch 5G to be quite good, only that it cannot take a micro-SD card so you can get it with up to 64 GB internal. Its built in DAC and Amp are surprisingly good, the software is very good as you can get Neutron (recently) on iOS. There are other good player apps on it as well, in the past not so much. It is small, light weight, easily attaches to external DACs and its USB Audio implementation is far better than anything I've seen on Android":
 
As far as I understand, you did a lot of comparisons between different USB audio systems including an iPod Touch 5G / different Android devices.
I would like to know what are the different hard and soft components of these setups: headphones, amp, USB DAC, Android devices, music players.

headified said:

  Hi DanBa, you seem to have probably tested out the most combination out there, do you know why exactly on this Video, it seems to be working over OTG without any kind of third party software?
It seem to be even not the latest Android (think it's 4.2.2 regarding the looks).
 
I know that it isn't a Dragonfly, so might it be possible that it has something to do with the DAC used in this Video?
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt0E62X0ZSE
 
 
Regards.

Click to expand...

 
On the video, the Pico USB DAC/amp is working with the Xperia Z using the native USB audio (cf. the 1st figure on post #4714 - USB audio-enabled Android device): it means that the developers of the Pico and the Xperia Z have the same understanding of the USB specification.
 
Your DragonFly doesn't work with your Xperia Z using the native USB audio (i.e. like Neutron, the native music player Walkman can only interface with the native USB audio driver via the Android media player framework): it means that the developers of the DragonFly and the Xperia Z don't have the same understanding of some part of the USB specification.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/4080#post_10270550
 
Your DragonFly is working with your Xperia Z using the USB Audio Player PRO app which includes its own USB audio function (cf. the 1st figure on post #4714 - USB host-enabled Android device): it means that the developers of the DragonFly and the UAPP have the same understanding of the USB specification.
 
As far as I know, every USB DAC compatible with the native USB audio is also compatible with the UAPP USB audio.
And a lot of USB DAC not compatible with the native USB audio are compatible with the UAPP USB audio: it means that the UAPP developer has a very good understanding of the USB specification.
The UAPP USB audio has a proprietary interface: other music player like Walkman or Neutron can't use the UAPP USB audio soft-driver.
 
Sony is aware of the interworking issue between DragonFly and Xperia Z.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/4200#post_10308917
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/4200#post_10310445

danba said:

   
We don't have the same vocabulary.
For me as well as for Wiki, "a computer is a general purpose device that can be programmed to carry out a set of arithmetic or logical operations automatically. Since a sequence of operations can be readily changed, the computer can solve more than one kind of problem."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer
 
 
 
As Google doesn't support USB audio, a (Google) Android version is useless.
https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=24614&sort=-stars&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Owner%20Summary%20Stars
 
"I find the iPod Touch 5G to be quite good, only that it cannot take a micro-SD card so you can get it with up to 64 GB internal. Its built in DAC and Amp are surprisingly good, the software is very good as you can get Neutron (recently) on iOS. There are other good player apps on it as well, in the past not so much. It is small, light weight, easily attaches to external DACs and its USB Audio implementation is far better than anything I've seen on Android":
 
As far as I understand, you did a lot of comparisons between different USB audio systems including an iPod Touch 5G / different Android devices.
I would like to know what are the different hard and soft components of these setups: headphones, amp, USB DAC, Android devices, music players.

Click to expand...

A "General Purpose Computer" and a "General Purpose Device" are two different things.
Headphones & IEMs.
Sennheiser HD600
Sennheiser  Momentum Over Ear (Around)
Hiffiman HE-500
Sony XBA-3
 
DACs
Schiit Bifrost Uber USB
FiiO E18
 
Amps
Schiit Asgard 2
Schiit Vali
FiiO E12
 
* - I have other Amps and DACs, these were used in comparing these DAPs. PC's and Laptops were not used in this comparison.
 
DAP capable devices
iPod Touch 5G 32GB
Samsung Galaxy S3
Samsung Galaxy S4
Samsung Galaxy Note 3
Google Nexus 7 (2013) LTE - The only device that does not support Native USB Audio   - limited use - boring - Google dropped the ball
 
Software -  iOS and Android
Neutron MP 
Google Play Music
 
Software -  iOS only
gMusic2 
SmartEQ 
Music - iOS Stock Player app 
 
Software -  Android only
PowerAmp 
 
I found that the Touch 5G had the best USB Audio implementation. Its internal DAC and Amp are superior to the other devices when used standalone or with an external Amp (double amping). Once connected to an external DAC the differences using the same software with the same DAC/Amp combinations were minimal. IMO Neutron MP was the best. gMusic2 (plays Google Cloud and All Access) was better than Google's Player software in both SQ and UI.
I found all of the Android devices screamed for help as their internal Amps were nothing to write home about. Since they don't have line outs (or any good line outs) the quality of their DACs are hard to evaluate since they pass through unimpressive amps. The GS3 is capable of line out via a special USB cable, unfortunately it's noisey. 
I much prefer Android to iOS, but for a DAP only use, this is not an issue. Although Apple has much better hardware for the Touch 5G as well as a better USB Audio implementation, based upon conversations that I've had with someone that writes DAP software on iOS, they did not do a good job of allowing the sharing music files between applications. But, it can be done. Until this is done, locally downloaded music files from Google using either Google Play Music or gMusic2 are duplicated in different areas, wasting space on the SSD.

stand said:

 
I found that the Touch 5G had the best USB Audio implementation. Its internal DAC and Amp are superior to the other devices when used standalone or with an external Amp (double amping). Once connected to an external DAC the differences using the same software with the same DAC/Amp combinations were minimal. IMO Neutron MP was the best. gMusic2 (plays Google Cloud and All Access) was better than Google's Player software in both SQ and UI.
I found all of the Android devices screamed for help as their internal Amps were nothing to write home about. Since they don't have line outs (or any good line outs) the quality of their DACs are hard to evaluate since they pass through unimpressive amps. The GS3 is capable of line out via a special USB cable, unfortunately it's noisey. 
I much prefer Android to iOS, but for a DAP only use, this is not an issue. Although Apple has much better hardware for the Touch 5G as well as a better USB Audio implementation, based upon conversations that I've had with someone that writes DAP software on iOS, they did not do a good job of allowing the sharing music files between applications. But, it can be done. Until this is done, locally downloaded music files from Google using either Google Play Music or gMusic2 are duplicated in different areas, wasting space on the SSD.

Click to expand...

 
I don't quite understand your logic.
 
MP3 aside, can you please specify what types of music files did you try to play? I.e. did you test higher resolution music files with BD/SR above 16bit/44.1kHz?
 
And finally, why do you conclude that Touch 5G has the best USB Audio implementation by claiming that its internal DAC/Amp is the best?
 
I don't argue this statement about internal DAC/Amp, all I am saying that the internal DAC/Amp have absolutely nothing to do with USB audio implementation, as they are totally bypassed...
 
And then, we're left with all the stupid Apple things like no SD card support, iTunes nightmare to put music into the device, etc.
 
There have to be very solid reasons to claim iPod has the best USB Audio implementation... Oh, and can you please also tell us what current allowance does the iPod touch have, when you connect an external device to it?

I have a rooted android galaxy S4 (i9505 with 4.4.2), also installed are UAPP and UARP.
Recently I purchased the GeekOut DAC (450mw), which works fine with my windows PC's USB ports.
 
I did discover that when connecting the Geek DAC to my S4, directly via an OTG cable, the earphones (tested several) get extremly warm to the point of endangaring them. Using a Y split OTG cable and feeding the Geek with a 5 volt external battery, also heaqts the earphones.
 
Today I had purchased a Self Powered USB HUB which is fed via a wall connected power source. Connecting the S4 to the HUB's input port and the Geek DAC to another of the HUB's service ports, seems to better things; but the earphones are still getting warm (not as before).
 
When using a windows PC source (directly or via the USB HUB) the earphones stay cold. The cause for the heating seems to be the S4, the OTG cable or both.
 
I did try several OTG cables, which works well with other DACs I have. Also the S4 works normaly with my FiiO E18 DAC as well as with my (battery less) HiFiMeDIY android DAC with no heating and with clear sound.
 
 
Another standing issue is the fact that the GeekOut DAC does not support yet the Galaxy S4 (hope this will be addressed by an expected Light Harmonic Labs' firmaware update to the Geek).
 
Please advice