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Android phones and USB DACs - Page 315

post #4711 of 5302
Quote:
Originally Posted by tracyca View Post

My note 3 sounds Heavenly out of my cypher labs solo db & duet combo! Streaming spotfiy or rocking power amp!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tracyca View Post

I have the solo db hook up to note 3 using a Forza Audio otg cable. I use uapp for my evo 4G lte though. I have used the standard otg cable that came with the solo db and it also works fine.

 

May I rephrase that your Cypher Labs AlgoRhythm Solo -dB can work with your Note 3 using or not using UAPP, and it can only with your HTC EVO 4G LTE using UAPP?

Thanks.

post #4712 of 5302

A list of stock Android-powered devices reportedly interworking with standard USB DAC:

stock Android device > digital USB audio out >> standard USB DAC >> amp >> headphones

http://goo.gl/ksoF0d

 

A list of standard USB DAC reportedly interworking with the Android-powered smartphone Samsung Galaxy S3:

stock Samsung Galaxy S3 > digital USB audio out >> USB OTG cable (ID pin grounded) >> standard USB DAC >> amp >> headphones

http://goo.gl/yBKivk

 

A list of standard USB DAC reportedly interworking with the Android-powered smartphone Samsung Galaxy Note2:

stock Galaxy Note2 > digital USB audio out >> USB OTG cable (ID pin grounded) >> standard USB DAC >> amp >> headphones

http://goo.gl/Ga1jYw

 

A list of standard USB DAC reportedly interworking with the Android-powered smartphone Samung Galaxy S4:

stock Samsung Galaxy S4 > digital USB audio out >> USB OTG cable (ID pin grounded) >> standard USB DAC >> amp >> headphones

http://goo.gl/dIwrqp

 

A list of standard USB DAC reportedly interworking with the Android-powered smartphone Samsung Galaxy Note3:

stock Samsung Galaxy Note3 > digital USB audio out >> USB OTG cable (ID pin grounded) >> standard USB DAC >> amp >> headphones

http://goo.gl/7Bvkhz

 

A list of standard USB DAC reportedly interworking with the Android-powered smartphone Samung Galaxy S5:

stock Samsung Galaxy S5 > digital USB audio out >> USB OTG cable (ID pin grounded) >> standard USB DAC >> amp >> headphones

http://goo.gl/zUjud0

 

A list of standard USB DAC reportedly non-interworking with the Android-powered smartphone Samsung Galaxy S3 / Note2 / S4 / Note3 / S5 using USB Audio Recorder PRO /  USB Audio Player PRO:

http://goo.gl/kHJmfE

 

A list of USB OTG cables:

http://goo.gl/4JyOe5

 

FAQ:

http://goo.gl/A4dCnP

 

The basics:

http://goo.gl/MCFY2x

post #4713 of 5302
Quote:
Originally Posted by zolom View Post
 

I have the LH Labs Geek Out 450mw. works fine when connected to my win7 laptop.

Currently there is an issue with Android phones (mine is S4) even with UAPP, hope it may be solved soon by a Geek firmwate update.

 

I did encounter a serious problem though:

 

  • Can you explain what's the issue with the Y-OTG cable?

 

As far as I know, according to the USB Battery Charging 1.2 specification, a USB-Y cable is as follows:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/2580#post_9598490

 

 

An Android USB OTG device is configured to USB host mode supplying or drawing power, or USB peripheral mode by ACA/OTG software/hardware measuring the value of the ID resistance of the USB interface.

 

According to the value of the ID resistance:

. the Android device should act as a USB host, interwork with the USB DAC acting as a USB peripheral, and supply power to the bus-powered USB DAC

. the Android device should act as a standalone USB peripheral, and draw power from an external battery

. the Android device should act as a USB peripheral, interwork with a USB host, and draw power from an external power source

. the Android device should act as a USB host, interwork with the USB DAC acting as a USB peripheral, and draw power from an external battery or another external power supply.

 

The issue is that Samsung, like every other Android device maker, uses a standard USB concept (i.e. USB ACA), uses standard USB components (i.e. USB OTG – ACA components), but doesn't use standard ACA resistance values!
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/2595#post_9601384

 

More, Samsung has another proprietary USB ACA mode: analog USB audio out with some value of the ID resistance.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/450#post_8764207

 

So, everything could happen if the value of the ID resistance is not one of the Samsung values.

 


Quote:

Originally Posted by zolom View Post
 
  • Is there a recommended cable to use? I do not want to have the USB hub, for better portability.
 

 

I think it is better in your use case to get a USB-OTG Y cable from Elijah Audio: it has a price, but the guy seems to be very meticulous.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/4455#post_10427004

 

 

The value of the ID resistance is 0 ohm (i.e. ID grounded, a standard / Samsung value): the Android device is configured as USB host, but it doesn't supply power to the USB DAC which drains power from the external battery.

post #4714 of 5302
Quote:
Originally Posted by cattlethief View Post
 

I agree UAPP sounds superb there isnt another app that competes including the overhyped Neutron!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoekeat View Post
 


you guys saying that UAPP alter the output sound? or what are you guys implying?

 

I don't think UAPP alters the output sound: contrary to other players, it doesn't have any audio-manipulated feature (equalizer, ...).

 

I was pleasantly surprised with the great playback sound quality of the USB Audio Recorder PRO (UARP) app, and I was not alone.

 

"Thanks for the compliment. Note that the purpose was for recording" [UARP developer]
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/1080#post_8969083

 

It means that the playback code of UARP (and now UAPP) should be minimal: I think it should be one of the secrets of its great sound quality.

 

 

 

I think another winning point is its architecture: it doesn't use the Android media player framework.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/638387/best-android-music-player-app/240#post_10120655

 

" My USB audio code completely bypasses Android to get rid of all its problems and talks to Linux directly using file descriptors." [UARP developer]
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/1080#post_8968882

 

First, the Android media player framework is not adapted to audiophile USB audio because Google doesn't yet support USB audio.
http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=24614&sort=-stars&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Owner%20Summary%20Stars

 

And if the following diagram of current implementation related by a USB audio insider is true, it is a real mess, and it also involves a lot of processing overhead.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/2985

 

 

 

 

But, more than anything, trust your ears!

post #4715 of 5302
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltasun View Post

Hi DanBa, thanks for this, but can you snap a pic of your actual set up, all the components and connections. I'm probably gonna pick these up, but wanted what the whole enchilada looks like. Thanks!

 

Some pics of my setup:

 

Galaxy Note 3 using UAPP >> USB OTG adapter cable + regular USB cable >> self-powered Belkin 4-port USB hub powered by a Veho Pebble battery pack >

>> regular USB cable provided by the USB DAC maker >> ODAC >> Neco V3 amp >> Mad Dog headphones

>> regular USB cable provided by the USB hard drive maker >> Western Digital 2TB My Passport portable USB hard drive

 

Galaxy Note 3 using UAPP >> micro USB OTG plug to standard A receptacle USB adapter cable + standard A plug to mini B plug regular USB cable (the Belkin hub has a mini B receptacle for the upstream port) >> self-powered Belkin 4-port USB hub powered by a Veho Pebble battery pack >>

>> standard A plug to mini B plug regular USB cable provided by the USB DAC maker (the ODAC has a mini B receptacle)  >> ODAC >> Neco V3 amp >> Mad Dog headphones

>> standard A plug to USB 3.0 micro B plug regular USB cable provided by the USB hard drive maker >> Western Digital 2TB My Passport portable USB hard drive

 

From left to right: Mad Dog headphones, Neco V3 amp, ODAC, WD My Passport hard drive, Veho Pebble battery pack, Galaxy Note3

At the bottom: Belkin 4-port USB hub

 

 

 

post #4716 of 5302
Quote:
Originally Posted by m-i-c-k-e-y View Post
 

Geek Out 1000 confirm with Note LTE (using USB 3.0 OTG, usb 2.0 OTG works too)

 

UAPP w/ DXD

 

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

Apparently, UAPP can play DSD over PCM (DoP)-encoded files (i.e. DoP-encoded FLAC files) and the DoP can be decoded by the Geek Out.

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/85536726-post11.html

http://www.head-fi.org/t/680853/sony-nwz-zx1-35th-walkman-anniversary-model/3645#post_10252212

http://www.sonore.us/apps.html

post #4717 of 5302
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBa View Post

Some pics of my setup:

Galaxy Note 3 using UAPP >> USB OTG adapter cable + regular USB cable >> self-powered Belkin 4-port USB hub powered by a Veho Pebble battery pack >
>> regular USB cable provided by the USB DAC maker >> ODAC >> Neco V3 amp >> Mad Dog headphones
>> regular USB cable provided by the USB hard drive maker >> Western Digital 2TB My Passport portable USB hard drive

Galaxy Note 3 using UAPP >> micro USB OTG plug to standard A receptacle USB adapter cable + standard A plug to mini B plug regular USB cable (the Belkin hub has a mini B receptacle for the upstream port) >> self-powered Belkin 4-port USB hub powered by a Veho Pebble battery pack >>
>> standard A plug to mini B plug regular USB cable provided by the USB DAC maker (the ODAC has a mini B receptacle)  >> ODAC >> Neco V3 amp >> Mad Dog headphones
>> standard A plug to USB 3.0 micro B plug regular USB cable provided by the USB hard drive maker >> Western Digital 2TB My Passport portable USB hard drive

From left to right: Mad Dog headphones, Neco V3 amp, ODAC, WD My Passport hard drive, Veho Pebble battery pack, Galaxy Note3
At the bottom: Belkin 4-port USB hub
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)








Thanks, man...I wanted to see how they all came together. That is awesome!

Just bought a 2TB WD also, so now I gotta get the hub and the battery pack.
post #4718 of 5302
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
 

 

Thanks!

 

Apparently, UAPP can play DSD over PCM (DoP)-encoded files (i.e. DoP-encoded FLAC files) and the DoP can be decoded by the Geek Out.

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/85536726-post11.html

http://www.head-fi.org/t/680853/sony-nwz-zx1-35th-walkman-anniversary-model/3645#post_10252212

http://www.sonore.us/apps.html

 

Thank you will try it!

post #4719 of 5302
Quote:
Originally Posted by zolom View Post
 

 

What power source do use for the Geek? is it a battery, a usb wall charger or PC usb slot?

Did you encounter any heating of the earphones?

 

Thanks

I don't use a Geek. I've used both a wall wart as well as a battery with my OTG splitter cable with my GS3.  I've neer had a problem which caused heating of an IEM or headphone. That heating thing would have me worried. I suspect there is a DC offset getting to your IEMs.

post #4720 of 5302
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

Most if not all DAPs are computers as they have micro-processors in them. It's just a question of how good or bad the software is. I find the iPod Touch 5G to be quite good, only that it cannot take a micro-SD card so you can get it with up to 64 GB internal. Its built in DAC and Amp are surprisingly good, the software is very good as you can get Neutron (recently) on iOS. There are other good player apps on it as well, in the past not so much. It is small, light weight, easily attaches to external DACs and its USB Audio implementation is far better than anything I've seen on Android and I'm a big Android fan and can admit this. You can also stream from the device as well as listen to streaming services, even Google All Access.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
 

 

A lot of stuff have a microprocessor chip inside, like my smart card. And I can't use my Visa card as a general purpose computer as I do with a PC or with a Galaxy Note3.

My Android-powered Note3 is a general purpose computer because any consumer can download a third-party program like UAPP or a third-party developer like the UAPP developer can write and enhance his own music player program.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/632518/analog-squared-paper-discussion-and-appreciation-thread/3330#post_10475578

The AK240 DAP targeted by Bmichels is powered by Android but it is not a general purpose computer because it is not intended to be sold as a computer but only as a DAP: a consumer can't download UAPP and a third-party developer can't write a single line of code.

DAP makers used to have all their products under control; hence almost all DAP are closed systems.

 

 
 

 

Interesting.

Which Android did you compare? What are the different hard/soft components involved in the comparison?

I didn't say general purpose computer, these are still computers or embedded systems. Although Android does have Linux underneath and if you root the device you can get access to shell. Just because a particular DAP is closed, does not mean that is not a computer. You might say that the Samsung Galaxy Player was a general purpose computer, too bad the DAP functionality was a flop and they abandoned the product. It was way underpowered anyway.

When you say, "Which Android did you compare," did you mean which version or device? Which leads to clarifying the last question as well, hard and soft?

post #4721 of 5302

Hi DanBa, you seem to have probably tested out the most combination out there, do you know why exactly on this Video, it seems to be working over OTG without any kind of third party software?

It seem to be even not the latest Android (think it's 4.2.2 regarding the looks).

 

I know that it isn't a Dragonfly, so might it be possible that it has something to do with the DAC used in this Video?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt0E62X0ZSE

 

 

Regards.

post #4722 of 5302

I have an HRT Microstreamer on the way. Looking forward to it.


Edited by Robgo - 5/15/14 at 9:10am
post #4723 of 5302
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

I didn't say general purpose computer, these are still computers or embedded systems. Although Android does have Linux underneath and if you root the device you can get access to shell. Just because a particular DAP is closed, does not mean that is not a computer.

 

 

We don't have the same vocabulary.

For me as well as for Wiki, "a computer is a general purpose device that can be programmed to carry out a set of arithmetic or logical operations automatically. Since a sequence of operations can be readily changed, the computer can solve more than one kind of problem."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

When you say, "Which Android did you compare," did you mean which version or device? Which leads to clarifying the last question as well, hard and soft?

 

 

As Google doesn't support USB audio, a (Google) Android version is useless.

https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=24614&sort=-stars&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Owner%20Summary%20Stars

 

"I find the iPod Touch 5G to be quite good, only that it cannot take a micro-SD card so you can get it with up to 64 GB internal. Its built in DAC and Amp are surprisingly good, the software is very good as you can get Neutron (recently) on iOS. There are other good player apps on it as well, in the past not so much. It is small, light weight, easily attaches to external DACs and its USB Audio implementation is far better than anything I've seen on Android":

 

As far as I understand, you did a lot of comparisons between different USB audio systems including an iPod Touch 5G / different Android devices.

I would like to know what are the different hard and soft components of these setups: headphones, amp, USB DAC, Android devices, music players.

post #4724 of 5302
Quote:
Originally Posted by headified View Post
 

Hi DanBa, you seem to have probably tested out the most combination out there, do you know why exactly on this Video, it seems to be working over OTG without any kind of third party software?

It seem to be even not the latest Android (think it's 4.2.2 regarding the looks).

 

I know that it isn't a Dragonfly, so might it be possible that it has something to do with the DAC used in this Video?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt0E62X0ZSE

 

 

Regards.

 

On the video, the Pico USB DAC/amp is working with the Xperia Z using the native USB audio (cf. the 1st figure on post #4714 - USB audio-enabled Android device): it means that the developers of the Pico and the Xperia Z have the same understanding of the USB specification.

 

Your DragonFly doesn't work with your Xperia Z using the native USB audio (i.e. like Neutron, the native music player Walkman can only interface with the native USB audio driver via the Android media player framework): it means that the developers of the DragonFly and the Xperia Z don't have the same understanding of some part of the USB specification.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/4080#post_10270550

 

Your DragonFly is working with your Xperia Z using the USB Audio Player PRO app which includes its own USB audio function (cf. the 1st figure on post #4714 - USB host-enabled Android device): it means that the developers of the DragonFly and the UAPP have the same understanding of the USB specification.

 

As far as I know, every USB DAC compatible with the native USB audio is also compatible with the UAPP USB audio.

And a lot of USB DAC not compatible with the native USB audio are compatible with the UAPP USB audio: it means that the UAPP developer has a very good understanding of the USB specification.

The UAPP USB audio has a proprietary interface: other music player like Walkman or Neutron can't use the UAPP USB audio soft-driver.

 

Sony is aware of the interworking issue between DragonFly and Xperia Z.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/4200#post_10308917

http://www.head-fi.org/t/595071/android-phones-and-usb-dacs/4200#post_10310445

post #4725 of 5302
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
 

 

We don't have the same vocabulary.

For me as well as for Wiki, "a computer is a general purpose device that can be programmed to carry out a set of arithmetic or logical operations automatically. Since a sequence of operations can be readily changed, the computer can solve more than one kind of problem."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer

 

 

 

As Google doesn't support USB audio, a (Google) Android version is useless.

https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=24614&sort=-stars&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Owner%20Summary%20Stars

 

"I find the iPod Touch 5G to be quite good, only that it cannot take a micro-SD card so you can get it with up to 64 GB internal. Its built in DAC and Amp are surprisingly good, the software is very good as you can get Neutron (recently) on iOS. There are other good player apps on it as well, in the past not so much. It is small, light weight, easily attaches to external DACs and its USB Audio implementation is far better than anything I've seen on Android":

 

As far as I understand, you did a lot of comparisons between different USB audio systems including an iPod Touch 5G / different Android devices.

I would like to know what are the different hard and soft components of these setups: headphones, amp, USB DAC, Android devices, music players.

A "General Purpose Computer" and a "General Purpose Device" are two different things.

Headphones & IEMs.

Sennheiser HD600

Sennheiser  Momentum Over Ear (Around)

Hiffiman HE-500

Sony XBA-3

 

DACs

Schiit Bifrost Uber USB

FiiO E18

 

Amps

Schiit Asgard 2

Schiit Vali

FiiO E12

 

* - I have other Amps and DACs, these were used in comparing these DAPs. PC's and Laptops were not used in this comparison.

 

DAP capable devices

iPod Touch 5G 32GB

Samsung Galaxy S3

Samsung Galaxy S4

Samsung Galaxy Note 3

Google Nexus 7 (2013) LTE - The only device that does not support Native USB Audio :mad: - limited use - boring - Google dropped the ball

 

Software -  iOS and Android

Neutron MP :happy_face1:

Google Play Music

 

Software -  iOS only

gMusic2 :happy_face1:

SmartEQ :happy_face1:

Music - iOS Stock Player app :frown:

 

Software -  Android only

PowerAmp :happy_face1:

 

I found that the Touch 5G had the best USB Audio implementation. Its internal DAC and Amp are superior to the other devices when used standalone or with an external Amp (double amping). Once connected to an external DAC the differences using the same software with the same DAC/Amp combinations were minimal. IMO Neutron MP was the best. gMusic2 (plays Google Cloud and All Access) was better than Google's Player software in both SQ and UI.

I found all of the Android devices screamed for help as their internal Amps were nothing to write home about. Since they don't have line outs (or any good line outs) the quality of their DACs are hard to evaluate since they pass through unimpressive amps. The GS3 is capable of line out via a special USB cable, unfortunately it's noisey. 

I much prefer Android to iOS, but for a DAP only use, this is not an issue. Although Apple has much better hardware for the Touch 5G as well as a better USB Audio implementation, based upon conversations that I've had with someone that writes DAP software on iOS, they did not do a good job of allowing the sharing music files between applications. But, it can be done. Until this is done, locally downloaded music files from Google using either Google Play Music or gMusic2 are duplicated in different areas, wasting space on the SSD.


Edited by StanD - 5/14/14 at 6:49pm
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