carts exhibit vastly different behaviour once called upon to track high amplitude low frequency signals

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Isn't that just plain logical? How do you make a tuningfork resonate? Get the mass exited with a max amplitude tug or apply the frequency.

If the cartridge exhibits gross non linearities anywhere within its operating range - not just within its spec or 20Hz-20kHz range - it will noise on vinyl .

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And this also. But I wouldn't call it vinyl noise as such. It is non-signal related resonance induced by excitation from,... well anything that gets it excited (save porn I guess ). At the moment I was listening to an old Decca Ace of Clubs mono record that a a severe hum once I put it on. In the runout groove it suddenly stops. Meaning that it is not vinyl noise. Maybe the lathe or maybe it's on the tape. Beside the hum the record sounds excellent though. I also had a few Decca testpressing (all in the English collection I just received). They were in flimsy paper sleeves and the last one I just played (v Beinum CGO Sym Fantastique) had a starfish shaped scratch from a grain of sand the size of a mooncrater just at the beginning. But I was curious about the sound. The sound was very good and amazingly quiet. Then the tick set in, tick, tick, ticktick, poptick, pop. POP, POP, tick, tick. undistorbed music until runout. Eh? Was that it? I really expected the cart to be launched, or hang or something. Amazing how you can't tell the severity of a scratch when you have a decent cart (ok, mine's more than decent).
Now I am playing an EMI Columbia SAX 2486 (3rd ed stamp), it looks absolutely squeaky clean (washed and treated), and still ticks all over the music like a rangers dog. Really annoying since the music is so absolutely wonderfull (Klemperers Mozart 40). The LP is now bathing in woodglue. See how this turns out.

Got a new album.  Nice and zippy, especially on my Rega.
 

]eep said:

Isn't that just plain logical? How do you make a tuningfork resonate? Get the mass exited with a max amplitude tug or apply the frequency.
And this also. But I wouldn't call it vinyl noise as such. It is non-signal related resonance induced by excitation from,... well anything that gets it excited (save porn I guess

). At the moment I was listening to an old Decca Ace of Clubs mono record that a a severe hum once I put it on. In the runout groove it suddenly stops. Meaning that it is not vinyl noise. Maybe the lathe or maybe it's on the tape. Beside the hum the record sounds excellent though. I also had a few Decca testpressing (all in the English collection I just received). They were in flimsy paper sleeves and the last one I just played (v Beinum CGO Sym Fantastique) had a starfish shaped scratch from a grain of sand the size of a mooncrater just at the beginning. But I was curious about the sound. The sound was very good and amazingly quiet. Then the tick set in, tick, tick, ticktick, poptick, pop. POP, POP, tick, tick. undistorbed music until runout. Eh? Was that it? I really expected the cart to be launched, or hang or something. Amazing how you can't tell the severity of a scratch when you have a decent cart (ok, mine's more than decent).
Now I am playing an EMI Columbia SAX 2486 (3rd ed stamp), it looks absolutely squeaky clean (washed and treated), and still ticks all over the music like a rangers dog. Really annoying since the music is so absolutely wonderfull (Klemperers Mozart 40). The LP is now bathing in woodglue. See how this turns out.

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It is amazing to see (actually - hear ! ) the difference in the quality of mastering of the vinyl spanning several decades. BCD ( before CD ) , when dynamic range of just slightly over 70 dB or so was the maximum to be expected, one can find hum, lathe "inward moving noise" - all as a consequence of vinyl cutting/mastering. The hum is lot of time also on the master tapes - you can not do much about it , at least staying in analog. I am not going to say there were no quiet recordings decades ago ( they were - Pyral lacquers from 1977-78 were the best that ever were ) - but general awareness regarding hum etc was not nearly as high as it is today. If you "master" anything with loudspeakers only ( the preferred and - face it - more convinient method ) , low frequencies hum etc can well sneak past - use headphones or even better, IEMs - there is no place to hide.
 
That it can be done has been demonstrated many times, even by the majors. But there was one place that was #1 for vinyl - JVC in Japan. They did the quietest vinyl, the longest lasting vinyl ( they were kind of FORCED to do it - because CD-4 quadrophonic sound carrier of 50 khz does not survive well with normal vinyl ... -  and CD-4 was JVC's baby ), to the point they could fit waaaay longer material on the 45RPM disc that is customary - with greater dynamic range - cut at relatively low level that would get drowned in surface noise if done by anyone else.
 
I remember the sadness of the day I was informed that JVC stopped producing vinyl - it was also the end of their series of test records that were - and still are - second to none.
 
The vast range of "quality" of vinyl does make one re-think of  pushing the turntable design to the max - there are very few LPs available that can even approach what top TTs are capable of reproducing. 

A 150 000 dollars turntable
 

 

 

 
Quoted from martinloganowners.com 
"I'll start off with the source equipment and pre-amplification. The analog source was the Clearaudio Statement turntable. The Statement is a 770 lb. analog masterpiece featuring a magnetically driven subplatter that provides absolutely no contact to the main platter, and both platters are dynamically balanced. A 176 lb. plenum is utilized as a leveling device to insure the utmost precision in leveling the table. A high speed microprocessor motor controller similar to the ones used on the Mars rover controls motor drive speed. It can accomodate up to 4 tonearms, and resonance control is accomplished via the inclusion of damped, sandwiched, bulletproof wood (Panzer Holz), stainless steel, and acrylic structures. You can have one for $150,000.00. The table was fitted with a Clearaudio Goldring V2 cartridge ($10,000), that is capable of more than 100db of dynamic range - better than many digital rigs. This was the first time this turntable system was ever displayed actively for the public.

The signal from the cartridge was run through the new Aesthetix IO Eclipse phono pre-amp ($15,500.00), running dual outboard power supplies."
 
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?7410-Rocky-Mountain-Audio-Fest-2008/page5

Clearaudio has a very nice middleground compromise table in between the statement and the one on the top photo (dunno what that's called, it's not an Innovation compact). The Master Innovation is the price of a small car and has a lot of smart tricks (innovation, yeah but it's already called that) an a lot of heft. I like the cool understatement of the Ovation, that looks a lot like the Dr Feickert. And a step up from my Performance. But it's double the price and just out of reach... But I like their products. Beauty and the beast in one body.

Picked this one up yesterday as an upgrade to my Pioneer PL-41. Linn Basik with Akito tonearm and Linn K5 cart.

Nice.  Looks mint plus.  Congratulations!

Looks very nice and like new. With the 'Kinki' mat option too!

This arm/table can handle a lot better cart. That is not what Linn will tell you but their word is not canonical.

ak7579 said:

Picked this one up yesterday as an upgrade to my Pioneer PL-41. Linn Basik with Akito tonearm and Linn K5 cart.

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Like the others have said before, nice TT in great condition. I like the tennis/squash balls cut in half for the isolation support - should be quite effective.
 
Regarding the cart - Linn K5 was manufactured by Audio Technica, it is a close relative of AT95. I have seen in Linn forums how to mate the ATN 95 stylus to K5 cart, now K5 is no longer in production and spare styli are hard to find.
That said, check http://www.analogplanet.com/content/nine-cartridges-compared-reviewed-and-voting-results - there is an upgrade for ATN95 with Shibata stylus
which should give you perhaps the biggest bang for the buck in your case. But the arm ( if really with OK bearings ) can handle even much better cart$.

It came with the default felt mat but I decided to use my previous leather one and I like the results better. Tamed highs and deeper bass.

As for the cart, I did read that the ATN95 stylus would be a great upgrade for it and already have my eye on one from LPgear but may go straight for Denon DL103 once I have funds.

ak7579 said:

It came with the default felt mat but I decided to use my previous leather one and I like the results better. Tamed highs and deeper bass.

As for the cart, I did read that the ATN95 stylus would be a great upgrade for it and already have my eye on one from LPgear but may go straight for Denon DL103 once I have funds.

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DL103 is a low compliance cart - and needs a heavy arm to really sing. You just might get by with placing as much ballast in the headshell area as the Akito is still capable of balancing out. http://www.vinylengine.com/library/linn/akito.shtml says effective mass is 10 g, Denon DL103 has a mass of 8,5 g + hardware - which leaves practically nothing to add, as Akito can balance 10 g. Even if 2 additional g mass is added to the headshell area ( and stylus gauge used for setting VTF ), it is still on the light side for DL103.
 
specifications Denon DL-103:
 

1. Frequency response (Hz): 20-45,000
2. Output@1khz, 50mm/sec: .3mV
3. Output impedance: 40 ohms
4. Load impedance: 100ohms
5. Channel seperation at 1kHz: over 25db
6. Channel sensitivity: 1dB or less
7. Tracking tip: 16.5 micron special round solid diamond
8. Copliance: 5x10-6cm/dyne (100Hz)
9. Tracking force- 2.3~2.7g
10. Cantilever: aluminum, conical
11. Mass: 8.5g

 
The desired resonant frequency is 8-12 Hz, with "ideal" being 10 Hz - http://www.resfreq.com/resonancecalculator.html gives for total mass of 20 g and compliance 5 resonant frequency almost 16 Hz - which is BAD. Subjectively, it means boomy bass and overall lift in response starting at approx 40 Hz
reaching approx + 3 dB @20 Hz - which IS audible. The only thing I do not agree with from the Poul Ladegaard excellent paper is his recommendation of 16 Hz resonance - it does have its pros, but con is bass as described above. There are means to still have the unwanted movements around resonant frequency as low as with 16 Hz resonance with lower resonant frequencies ( and faboulous sounding bass...) - but Akito provides for none of the measures required.
 
 
I prefer resonant frequency slightly below 10 Hz - (around 9 ) as it avoids the above while still not too low and too excitable by warps etc. If there is a way of getting the counterweight for Akito to balance some additional mass where you at least could reach 12 Hz resonance, that would be OK - not great, but OK. 
 
I did clearly state my reservations regarding carts with spherical stylus tracking at approx 2.5 g VTF and requiring heavy arms before; DL103 DOES sound good, but for how long will the records tracked by it continue to sound good is another matter.... 
 
Once you figure out what your previous cartridges have been doing in the grooves of your LPs once you do get to use a cart that can track at stylus pressure that is vinyl friendly, it IS too late. 
 
 

Likewise, I do not recommend the DL103. It is originally a broadcast cartridge able to withstand abuse. It might have some good characteristics but the round stylus cannot steer the same curves a nice super elliptical can, and the small contactarea, exacerbated by the 2.5g force puts a lot of pressure in the tender groove wall. It deforms the vinyl and will not scan the whole wall.

wikipedia:
Cross-section diagram comparing two common types of stylus. Spherical (left), Elliptical (right). Note the difference in contact area marked in red. The elliptical stylus allows for more groove contact area which increases fidelity, whereas the spherical makes less contact with the grove and generates less fidelity.

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Here are some more realistically scaled shapes.




And some actual microscope shots which are pretty cool

An actual Denon DL103.

Stanton DJ stylus.

Shure M92 eliptical

Fritz Gyger-S

I know this one, I've got this one, I love this one. Dynavector Karat 17D Mk2 (how did they get the diamond stuck in a diamond?)

AT-ML150

AT-OC9MLII

Same microline, more detailed.

But, not everything is what you see or seems....

This is a Denon 103R, modified with a panzerholz body and SoundSmith "Ruby nude contact line diamond" re-tip. Don't get your hopes up though, the waiting list is l o n g... (1 year?) And complyance is the same, not for low-medium mass arms.

]eep said:

Likewise, I do not recommend the DL103. It is originally a broadcast cartridge able to withstand abuse. It might have some good characteristics but the round stylus cannot steer the same curves a nice super elliptical can, and the small contactarea, exacerbated by the 2.5g force puts a lot of pressure in the tender groove wall. It deforms the vinyl and will not scan the whole wall.

Here are some more realistically scaled shapes.

And some actual microscope shots which are pretty cool

An actual Denon DL103.

Stanton DJ stylus.

Shure M92 eliptical

Fritz Gyger-S

I know this one, I've got this one, I love this one. Dynavector Karat 17D Mk2 (how did they get the diamond stuck in a diamond?)

AT-ML150

AT-OC9MLII

Same microline, more detailed.

But, not everything is what you see or seems....

This is a Denon 103R, modified with a panzerholz body and SoundSmith "Ruby nude contact line diamond" re-tip. Don't get your hopes up though, the waiting list is l o n g... (1 year?) And complyance is the same, not for low-medium mass arms.

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How did they get the diamond stylus into the diamond cantilever ? "Simple" - if you are Namiki. By using YAG laser that cuts the square hole in the cantilever - and as this cutting makes the diamond ( a bit/quite/much ) hot - it expands a little and before it cools off, they insert the diamond stylus which gets locked/clamped once the diamond cantilever cools down. Everything is so precise no adhesive is used/required - con is the fact the fact that once stylus is worn, it can not be replaced ( sometimes it IS possible to *somehow* get the stylus out of cantilever, but a new one of the EXACTLY same dimensions can not be re-installed ) > which actually requires the change of  complete mechanical part, coils included; hence the high cost of "retipping" which is nothing else but replacement with new cartridge.
 
Due to that temperature clamping of the stylus/cantilever, all "retipings" of Karat by a third party - IF the diamond stylus  can be extracted without damaging the diamond cantilever - use either a smaller cross-section stylus that fits the original hole + some adhesive OR a bigger section stylus glued on like in Soundsmith Ruby  or AT OC ML II case. None can achieve the same rigidity as the original - ANY glue is chewing gum compared to diamond...

It was more of a rhetorical question since I guessed it must be done that way. But it is really high-tech, anyone has got to admit. Tolerances are terrifyingly low. I have made woodjoints with a chisel and without glue that is really hard. To tight and it breaks, to wide and it slips out. Pinewood is tolerant (high modulus of elasticity and tough) but diamond is not (rigid and brittle). But as you mentioned you can leave that to the Japanese!
At the time when Mr van den Hul was adjusting the cantilever, squeezing it with his plyers he was making jokes about sqeezing it a bit to hard and accidentally breaking it. I could not appreciate the joke then. He was doing all the work and I was sweating.

]eep said:

It was more of a rhetorical question since I guessed it must be done that way. But it is really high-tech, anyone has got to admit. Tolerances are terrifyingly low. I have made woodjoints with a chisel and without glue that is really hard. To tight and it breaks, to wide and it slips out. Pinewood is tolerant (high modulus of elasticity and tough) but diamond is not (rigid and brittle). But as you mentioned you can leave that to the Japanese!
At the time when Mr van den Hul was adjusting the cantilever, squeezing it with his plyers he was making jokes about sqeezing it a bit to hard and accidentally breaking it. I could not appreciate the joke then. He was doing all the work and I was sweating.

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Your reply is the real world practical answer as to who is capable of the top precision in phono stylus and cantilever manufacturing. Technology that makes it possible is mind boggling and simply is not available outside Japan.
 
Some of the cartridges can be repaired/retipped to quite close, maybe even better condition than they left the factory. Some can not - and Dynavector Karats are definitely among them. One of the hardest things to accomplish is to get Namiki to agree to start supplying their stylus tips to a phono cartridge manufacturer - it is like buying a Ferrari, cash alone is not nearly enough.
 
It is true that Namiki did cut a few Van den Hul I styli without permission from /payment to Van den Hul. I have seen it mounted to Audio Note IO ( or was it a Soara ?)
MC cartridge. With one difference - it looked in flesh at least every bit as good as the original did - in brochure, not in real life ...  Since that brief period, they switched to Micro (Ridge, Line, whatever, SAS ) and further improved the precision. They REALLY take care of the end product, they would not supply their styli to anybody that would not mount them to anything but second to none precision. Similar to the approach Reynolds has in regard of the use for its tubing for frame building for bicycles and motorcycles.
 
Among the cartridges that can not be retipped to or beyond original quality is anything with stylus mounted to the cantilever with a hole in it, like the AT ML150 pictured in the above post of yours.  Once it is gone, it is gone - at least in the quality as you knew it. No matter what any retipper might be telling you. Grado ( Joe Grado personally ) used to test his Signature series for this critical joint between the stylus and cantilever - by ear, as optical means can not tell you absolutely nothing about the integrity of this bond. And he destroyed more than a third (or was it two thirds ? ) of any given production, letting only the good ones to reach the market. You can not buy a Grado of this quality anymore - but at the time Signature series appeared, it was thought of as being outrageously expensive. And even among those super selected styli, there were audible differences among them - at least one user with 5 Signatures reported they all sound slightly different.