No one who believes in amps has asked the question 'what amps are being used in measurements?'. Obviously the $30 earbuds and the expensive orthos would have to go through the same amp for consistency.
 
Headroom once answered the question 'what amps do you use' and responded with something along the lines of 'it doesn't matter, that all sound the same.' If a company with access to that many pieces of equipment and the appropriate measuring technologies, then I'll believe them over some randoms who are looking to justify their purchase with talks of 'it's not burnt in yet', 'i just don't have the amp for it', 'i paid $1000 for it, it will show eventually' and so on.

Ignore please. 
 
This is a headphone review thread. 
This thread is for people that already believe in my philosophy,
not an amp discussion thread. 
 
If you disagree on amps, post elsewhere. 
Keep your posts relevant. 

I don't think the amplification factor should be critical enough to degrade the entire thread, because honestly I think it was a great review. But just for the sake of argument you should just test it with a more expensive amp. You have little to lose compared to the amount you spent on those headphones.
 
As for the review, it seems like you praise the Denon, which is quite the opposite of what you said in the other thread by calling Denon owners exaggerated mofos. lol
 

Ahh.  Let me address that confusion right now.
 
I think for someone new to headphones, they would go "What, these are all pretty similar." 
Now, look above before I get to the bass / hip hop test: 
"[size=9pt]Did I mention the differences between these cans are tiny?  Have a look at the graph again."[/size]
 
So, given that the differences are pretty small, I am commenting on the differences I hear. 
The differences will depend on how much you are into this hobby.  I drew comparisons on luxury cars;
some people find the differences large, some small.
 
Hope that makes sense. 

 
Quote:

tobaccoroad said:

 
As for the review, it seems like you praise the Denon, which is quite the opposite of what you said in the other thread by calling Denon owners exaggerated mofos. lol
 

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Quote:

sugarkang said:

 
Double blind A/B yourself with my $50 amp versus your favorite $1,000 amp and then come back and post results.  As to the allegation that I am overestimating the performance, I'll just say that I owned a Meier Corda.  I know what a good amp sounds like.  Specifically, a good amp sounds like nothing.  It provides power with a low noise floor.  My $50 amp does everything the expensive amp does. 
 
The hardest thing to drive properly without distortion is bass.  I have 3 "neutral" headphone amps here.  The Asus Xonar has a built in amp, the E5 and the Headamp4.  There is no "color" distinction between any of them.  According to your logic, I'm lacking the "power to drive."  If that's true, you should also realize that the Headamp4 is MUCH more powerful than the E5, correct?  So, then the Headamp4 should be head and shoulders above the E5 in sound as well, right?  
 
It isn't.  It's exactly the same.  The only difference is how far I can drive volume levels.  The E5 doesn't go that far.  The Headamp4 goes way beyond normal listening levels.  If that weren't enough, my signal is being amplified TWICE.  I have the ASUS Xonar and the Headamp4 on one chain.  One amp, three amps, it doesn't matter:  they all sound the same. 
 
Take the Pepsi challenge and blind A/B yourself.  Otherwise, see my philosophy above. 
 
 
Quote:

shike said:

You're greatly overestimating the performance of something like the ART amp you reviewed.  I'm surprised no one brought it to your attention, but these are the specs:
 

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You're missing the point.  I'm not talking about power out all - I'm talking about the load the headphone "sees" from the amp.  I suggest you familiarize yourself with damping factor and frequency response error due to output impedance.  Till you understand these terms there's no point in continuing this conversation.  You'll also note I never suggested a $1K amplifier, quite contrary . . . but you jumped to conclusions and judged before understanding anything that was said.  Being rash and short sighted at the same time is ill advised.
 
 
http://www.stereophile.com/content/between-ears-art-and-science-measuring-headphones-page-4
 
 
An example of what I'm getting at.

I suggest you take a visit to sound science and use the search function there: it's not BS by any means.
 
EDIT:
 
Xnor basically explains the problem here:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/493436/dampening-in-amplifiers#post_6660782
 
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Slaughter
 
Opamps sound different too, just read the opamp thread and the hundreds of people who have posted in it. Your solid state's all sound the same claim is just as weak. I think you will be fine if you just stick to the headphone comparison part of this thread, which I really am looking forward to.
 

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Not if they're implemented in a circuit properly.  The only time an opamp should sound different is if it's clipping or distorting in another way (like oscillating).  Most opamps measure consistantly well, and if properly utilized will sound equally as good.  For example, the Benchmark DAC uses the NE5532 - but they designed specifically for it.  Randomly dropping in something like the OPA2134 caused substantial problems like increasing THD, the noise floor, and IMD.
 
Heck, you'll find tons of threads claiming cable "xyz" makes a massive difference - however when it comes to being tested it's never been seen as true.  Various solid state amplifiers that had massive differences somehow disappeared when they were level matched and reviewers blinded.
 
---------------------------------------------------------
 
Unless we can see the FRs mapped out thanks to the error your amp is adding then the first post of "see, they're basically the same!" is completely pointless.  They aren't going to be the same, but that point seems lost on you.

No. You have missed the point.
This is a thread for people with my biases and my preferences.
This is not an amps make a huge difference thread. 
If you disagree with my philosophy, you should post elsewhere. 
There are plenty of threads dedicated to whatever it is that you amp heads think is important.
I don't find any of that relevant to me, because I can't hear the difference.
 
Another way to approach this thread is:  "Given his crappy Headamp4, how do the cans sound?"
 
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
You're missing the point.  I'm not talking about power out all - I'm talking about the load the headphone "sees" from the amp.  I suggest you...

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Your amp is impacting the FR.  Mathematically proven.  Thus, this review only applies to being driven with an amp of 54ohms output impedance or similar.
 
As long as you understand that.  If you don't, try actually reading a post since it's obvious you haven't past one sentence.

While I do not agree with sugarkang on every level; I can see his frustration as his main and most important point is constantly being missed.
 
While I'm all for the mathematically and scientifically proven, if he can't hear the difference he can't hear the difference. The point is moot for him, so he did not include it in his review.
 
He's just trying to keep the "big" discussions at a minimum guys, because he's right, there are a LOT of threads on these.
 
How about lets focus on his comparisons?

Quote:

riku540 said:

While I do not agree with sugarkang on every level; I can see his frustration as his main and most important point is constantly being missed.
 
While I'm all for the mathematically and scientifically proven, if he can't hear the difference he can't hear the difference. The point is moot for him, so he did not include it in his review.
 
He's just trying to keep the "big" discussions at a minimum guys, because he's right, there are a LOT of threads on these.
 
How about lets focus on his comparisons?

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Yeah, I know what you're getting at.
 
I ran the numbers to see what the FR deviations would be.  It seems that all headphones respond with minimal deviation in this case assuming the D2000 is like the D5000.  The HD650 will have a 1dB boost at ~70hz which is the largest deviation of the bunch.  Overall it could be audible with high scrutiny, but probably won't be a deal breaker considering larger deviations in other areas.
 
Thankfully all the cans in this case will play fairly well with the amp rather than going nuts like some others, so the review should have further use.

Quote:

riku540 said:

While I do not agree with sugarkang on every level; I can see his frustration as his main and most important point is constantly being missed.
 
While I'm all for the mathematically and scientifically proven, if he can't hear the difference he can't hear the difference. The point is moot for him, so he did not include it in his review.
 

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No, and if he can't hear the difference, and neither can I, and neither can thousands of others, one has to wonder, as with the MP3 v. lossless debate, how big the difference is. I almost wrote how "real", but I'm prepared to accept there are noticeably differences, just not important ones compared to the differences in headphones themselves and recording quality. It's more a question of getting things in proportion than anything else.  

 
Quote:

pp312 said:

Quote:

riku540 said:

While I do not agree with sugarkang on every level; I can see his frustration as his main and most important point is constantly being missed.
 
While I'm all for the mathematically and scientifically proven, if he can't hear the difference he can't hear the difference. The point is moot for him, so he did not include it in his review.
 

Click to expand...

 
 
No, and if he can't hear the difference, and neither can I, and neither can thousands of others, one has to wonder, as with the MP3 v. lossless debate, how big the difference is. I almost wrote how "real", but I'm prepared to accept there are noticeably differences, just not important ones compared to the differences in headphones themselves and recording quality. It's more a question of getting things in proportion than anything else.  

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That's the thing though: it depends.  See the case with Stereophile with a 5dB deviation -- that would clearly be audible.  In this case though the output impedance didn't present a large problem, in other cases it can and does unfortunately

If you believe my improper amplification lends the entire headphone review incorrect, that is your right.  I believe that the crazy talk about opamps and what not are overblown and totally placebo, but I don't go into those threads to try and discredit everybody.  I don't mind disagreement.  However, I laid out the parameters of discussion in my FIRST POST.  Please adhere to that.  I am already aware that my opinion is a minority one.  How much clearer do I need to be?  I specifically begged not to be contested on this point. 
 
Final thoughts on bass review is up.  Guitar Rock review probably tomorrow. 

Read my posts in this thread and you'll see I'm of the same opinion . . . you have actually read them, right?  Or are you just guessing and assuming what I'm saying?

your title reads "mid-fi battle", but you include hd650 and DT880 in your review. I agree that D2000 and XB700 are mid-fi but the price of hd650 and dt880 would suggest they are intended closer to the "high end" league. Although no way those 2 models are the best offerings the companies have but i remembered there was a time when HD650 was the flagship product of Sens.

That's a point, windcar. It's fashionable lately to refer to the 650 as mid-fi because it can be bought reasonably cheaply, but I don't see it as mid-fi at all. And it's RRP is still over $800 in Oz, even if nobody ever pays that.