thank god for Rockbox, we can drag and drop our FLAC files now 

I have an iPod -- the 80gb classic to be exact. I used it daily for three-ish years before finally buying the x7, and I had no qualms about the SQ -- although I've now stopped using it pretty much completely (and when I do use it, it's always with an E7 & a LOD-cable), since the X7 is just far superior in terms of, well, everything.
 
Still, the iPod is a good little device. The best thing Apple has ever been able to come up with (not saying much, I know).

I like ipods.....
 
 
Properly ripped music to lossless + Rockbox + iPod + Line Out + LOD = Audiophile Powerhouse
 
Good times indeed......lol
 
I have enjoyed my iPods tremendously through the years and given them much love...lol
 
 
Rockbox love
 

 
 
 
Darkvoice 336SE love
 

 
 
 
 
LD MKVII & HFI-2200 love
 

 
 
 
 
Grados SR60, SR225 & LD I+ love
 

 
 
 

 
 
 
Old-school love- Xenos 3HA
 

 
 
 
 
Most recently, took this Yamaha receiver out of storage and plugged the iPod
 

 
 
Rear- Yamaha
 

 
 
 
Where it all began for me-  PA2V2
 

 
Quote:

shigzeo said:

No, I litterally mean that the iPod is better than those players in several key areas. Firstly, iPods hiss less than cowons or Sony's. They also have little to NO bass roll off (something no cowon this side of 2006 has been able to do), much wider stereo separation under load and less tendency to boom. I litterally mean that unless you tweak the Cowon, you aren't getting anything special. 
 
In other words, if all you like in your music is EQ and effects, both platforms aren't up to the level of the iPod in terms of playing music as it is recorded. Sony models tend to have a mix: some drop off the bass, others add to it, so that there is no neutral point.
 
Of course, if you like warmer sounding players, Sony is better. But literally, I am saying that the iPod is better than Cowon or Sony for realistic sound performance and in that, sound quality. Where sony excels is adding warmth - that is their key. Cowon excel with special effects, but those effects don't mean they sound better in any technical sense, those effects just make their sound more pleasing to SOME people. More pleasing and better are two very different things.

Click to expand...

I have made the measurements to back this up. The iPod Touch 3G, is capable of more accurate performance than the recent Cowon I tested right next to it. I can't argue if someone prefers Cowon's EQ options over an iPod. But there's no question which player has the better engineered signal path. Even the much cheaper Sansa Clip+ has much better bass frequency response than the Cowon. Look for an upcoming review of the Cowon (and Clip+) on my blog where you can see the data side-by-side with the iPod's.
 

I've enjoyed reading your blog today, especially the problems with RMAA. Indeed, there is no great way to make sure that different sources have tested under same circumstances, or the device under optimal settings. I always put disclaimer that my humble Edirol FA66 is in charge of measurements, and that the device was firest tested with square waves and volume matched at its peak performance before getting on with the tests. RMAA is useful as a general aide to testing overall performance, and thanks its price, is an incredible tool.
 
Quote:

nwavguy said:

 

I have made the measurements to back this up. The iPod Touch 3G, is capable of more accurate performance than the recent Cowon I tested right next to it. I can't argue if someone prefers Cowon's EQ options over an iPod. But there's no question which player has the better engineered signal path. Even the much cheaper Sansa Clip+ has much better bass frequency response than the Cowon. Look for an upcoming review of the Cowon (and Clip+) on my blog where you can see the data side-by-side with the iPod's.
 
 

Click to expand...

Quote:

prog rock man said:

The ipod is genius and produces a sound quality that exceeds any equivalent that came before it. ...

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There were some good sounding Mp3 players before the iPods became popular. The iPods sound wasn't very good in the first few generations either. They've obviously improved a lot over the year.
 
I have a 2G iPod touch which I think sounds great, and the 1st Gen Shuffle sounded great. The 4th gen Classic iPod I thought was terrible.
 
While the iPod interface is good. And tags and a database have their uses. I still think its hard to better physical buttons, and good old file names and folders, for KISS.
 

I've got:
 
4th generation ipod (the very rare edition with the larger HDD)
2nd gen ipod nano
3GS iPhone
HTC Desire HD
And am about to get a Cowon J3
 
I might have to give them a shoot-out!

Quote:

shigzeo said:

I've enjoyed reading your blog today, especially the problems with RMAA. Indeed, there is no great way to make sure that different sources have tested under same circumstances, or the device under optimal settings. I always put disclaimer that my humble Edirol FA66 is in charge of measurements, and that the device was firest tested with square waves and volume matched at its peak performance before getting on with the tests. RMAA is useful as a general aide to testing overall performance, and thanks its price, is an incredible tool.
 

 

Click to expand...

Thanks. I'm glad you enjoyed my blog. I just posted a very detailed review of the Clip+ vs the iPod Touch 3G and also compare RMAA measurements to those made with the dScope audio analyzer. I also tried to provide some background into the measurements, what's likely audible, and what likely is't.
 
With RMAA there are many things to watch out for, but used properly, it can often yield fairly decent results. The problem is, from what I've seen on the web, it's rarely used properly.

Quote:

nwavguy said:

 

I have made the measurements to back this up. The iPod Touch 3G, is capable of more accurate performance than the recent Cowon I tested right next to it. I can't argue if someone prefers Cowon's EQ options over an iPod. But there's no question which player has the better engineered signal path. Even the much cheaper Sansa Clip+ has much better bass frequency response than the Cowon. Look for an upcoming review of the Cowon (and Clip+) on my blog where you can see the data side-by-side with the iPod's.
 

Click to expand...

I don't know much (read: anything) about tests, but if I were to compare my Cowon X7 to my iPod Classic, the Cowon sounds way better, especially equalized and with BBE on. I don't know which one is the more accurate player, but if I had to listen to one of them for the rest of my life, I'd choose the X7 in a heartbeat.
 
To me, having a sound that I like is more important than absolute honesty/accuracy. I would however like to see how the X7 fares against whatever the latest player by Apple is in objective SQ. I've always hated Apple for all the overpriced overmarketed **** they make, but I can at least admit that their mp3-players are pretty good. Would be interesting to see if they can hold their own against Cowon, or if their latest iPods are... well, just what you'd expect from Apple.

Quote:

nwavguy said:

Thanks. I'm glad you enjoyed my blog. I just posted a very detailed review of the Clip+ vs the iPod Touch 3G and also compare RMAA measurements to those made with the dScope audio analyzer. I also tried to provide some background into the measurements, what's likely audible, and what likely is't.
 
With RMAA there are many things to watch out for, but used properly, it can often yield fairly decent results. The problem is, from what I've seen on the web, it's rarely used properly.

Click to expand...

Nice work. I really appreciate the work and contribution.  However, as good as the Clip measures and sounds for the price, until someone explains why the Clip+ sounds thin w/ everything I listen to 32ohms and over (DBA's, MDs, Xcapes, most in my sig, etc.) I simply don't regard it as being a player that rises to the level of an uber DAP.  I know I'm not the only one that hears the Clip+ this way either.  Where some players get criticized for being rolled off here or there and what not.  The Clip sounds thin across the whole spectrum and is in dire need of more power or current, whatever.  It's a DAP that makes compromises just as any other does.  I can certainly appreciate people preferring the compromises it makes over others but certainly consider that a subjective preference more than an universal truth.  Measurements can certainly inform and educate us about what we perceive to hear.  However, it cannot replace our ears so its largely in the listening for me.  That being said I have no problem saying it is the best product for the price ($25-$50) in that form factor.  Just thought I'd offer the requisite counterpoint to potential over exuberance.
 
Edit - I have to say I didn't give you enough props for your blog.  Really good work there.  Keep it up.  

imo that is due to the power output of the clip+. It does not have the most powerful amp inside it. The same applies for the fuze which is a bit worse since it is bigger than the clip+ but had a similar output if not the same.

While I do think it lacks a little power in comparison to my Cowon or Touch, on the other hand, my Clip+ sounds great with PortaPros.....no EQ required.

@Anaxilus thanks for the props. I'd venture your "thin" sound is more about the Clip+ being small, light and kind of "thin" in one's hand (i.e. the psychology of it) than anything else. It's a taboo topic here, but I'll be discussing the results of some bl1nd testing on my blog. And I think many here would be *very* surprised at the result when people don't know they're listening to.
 
@Kissiken I can't argue with liking Cowon's EQ, although you can do an awful lot with the Rockbox EQ options on the Clip or Fuze. Unlike Cowon, Rockbox gives you a real fully configurable parametric EQ (among other options) which is about as flexible as you can get. They also have highly configurable crossfeed (which, combined with EQ, is most of what BBE is doing).
 
@Rawster, if you look at my test you'll see the Clip+ really DOES have a powerful amp in it for a portable. It's better than the iPod Touch 3G in that regard and can deliver FAR more current with its very low 1 ohm output impedance. It won't drive 64+ ohm really inefficient headphones to ear damaging levels, but neither will most any other portable player.
 
I also have a test of the Cowon i9 coming up and it managed only a fraction of a dB more output than the Clip+. And it was audibly worse in other areas.

The scale of clip's sound is very confined & is quite tiny & not thin as compared to touch3g.
It's the  touch 3g that sounds thin but the scale of its output is huge as compared to clip.
Clip outdoes the touch3g in bass depth & impact easily but lags behind in stereo seperation & scale heavily.
The touch 3g is about 20% louder than clip at full volume

Really interesting blog. Tons of useful info and details that you don't always come across. And details tend to make a difference.
 
I was wondering about the player of choice output impedance. What effect does it have on the frequency response i.e. plugging a 36 Ohm Balanced Armature IEM into a 4 Ohm output device vs plugging it into a 1 Ohm output dap ? How can i find the output impedance of a device or a portable amp. I don't know that spec from any of my devices (iPhone 3GS, iPod Classic 2009 or iBasso T3 amp).
 
A review of the current iPod Classic would be nice. Since it's the long time forgotten iPod it is hard to find measurements of the current model which i find quite pleasing.