Okie dokie. Here's the deal. Everyone is looking for the best sound possible on a budget that works, be that $50-$20,000, with most of us far closer to the lower numbers. Some people have portable needs, some home needs, and some are looking to combine the two. Though I've seen many posts in most every thread clearly stating that with higher-end cans the whole rig must be considered to achieve a desired sound, I also see more and more threads and posts that lead me to think people's expectations about what they can get for a limited budget are unrealistic, whether it's wanting super high-end sound for under a certain dollar amount, or not considering the whole package if buying higher-end headphones. If you blow your whole budget on certain high-end cans, the chances for disappointment are pretty great, unless you know the headphone's requirements going in, and are planning for building a sytem either immediately or down the road. I'm not thinking about portable headphones and iems here, but full-sized headphones and what they require.

For example, there's a current thread where someone purchased K701s, ran them from a sound card, and then...surprise...didn't like them. He then started a thread about what's wrong with them. Any experienced K701 listener could have told him that hearing them as lifeless and thin would be the end result. The 701s simply need better amplification and a better source than he was giving them. Suggestions for an excellent amp under $400 were given, but the op had aready made up his mind. His expectations were for what he could achieve from his current gear and budget were unrealistic for that headphone. He's made decision about the K701 sound without even knowing what that really is. I also see threads on other brands (Senns in particular), where the op or others talk about the flaws, which are often (not always) corrected by appropriate matching of sources and amps that, yes, cost a little more money; or, as I've already said too often before, people buy a high-end headphone and expect a budget amp (under $100) and source will be adequate. It's not realistic, except as a stepping-stone solution, and even then, not necessarily a good choice, depending on individual need.

I guess what I'm pondering here is what the responsibility of the new member is to ask the right questions (will these headphones work well with or without y, or what do these headphones need to sound good?) vs. what the responsibility of more experienced members is to say if you're going to buy x, you must budget for y (or y and z as is usually the case) or choose differently. I see mostly questions about what the best headphone may be for rock or trance or for a certain budget, and then there's a series of posts with people just shooting out lists of often expensive headphones, but not as many that pause to say that with that recommendation comes a whole new list of things to consider if the buyer wants to go that way. Again, some people do respond responsibly (just saw a post by Duggeh doing just that), but lately is seems either fewer people are believing these posts, since others will eventually claim otherwise, or are simply ignoring the good advice and then showing up in the amp forum later with unrealistic requests based on screwy expectations. Ultimately, it's up to the op to research completely before buying, but it's also misleading to not tell them up front, especially if you know better.

I don't think it's wrong to choose a headphone first then build a system around it. That's what I've done for the most part. I started with SR60s, Ety ER4Ps, and HD580 with a portable amp and built from there, but I knew that's what I would need to do going in based on what I wanted to hear. If you don't want to build a system, there are options available as well, but be realistic. I've even had headphones (K1000s) sit in a box for months unused as I was able to afford them, but then needed to save before I could afford an amp good enough to drive them well. I'm wondering how many think this way when they ask or reply to "I want a new headphone that sounds great!"

I guess what I'm trying to say by starting this thread is that once we're done talking about portable headphones (iems, earbuds, etc) that were made to run out of daps (but can be improved with amps, etc.) and are talking instead about home gear (full-sized headphones), I think both the questions and replies need to take into account entire systems, and the budgets for that, not just what headphone sounds great for classical, metal, or whatever, because without the whole shebang, it might not sound good at all. As there are good systems at almost every budget level, it shoudn't be too hard to do.

Well said, I agree almost entirely wholeheartedly, there are those whose knowledge and circumstances places them out with your hypothetical boundaries and hypothesis, but still ,well said.

I am a cemented believer in the Transducer First philosophy. So I think that for people to buy high end headphones (to the layman, let us continue to ascribe the K701 and H650 this status) with the known end aim that they must bring the associated gear up to snuff is a good way of going about things.

You nail the problem on the head however in both of your angles on the problem. 1) that people do not read up enough on what is required of these fabulous toys they buy and 2) that little/some/most of the information that they may receive on these toys here and elsewhere is woolen or misdirected or unclear.

I think that is was, is and will continue to be the case though, that it simply requires time/education/experience in order for anybody buying into this hobby at any level to come to appreciate many of the factors which ultimately govern it. The appropriate role of the headphone amplifier is one such learning experience.

I greatly enjoyed reading (although did not comment in) the wonderful thread you started in the amplification forum relating to this issue. And your post here offers a less fist waving and more rounded oratory on the subject.

A $150 cdp into a $200 dac into a $100 amp feeding a $100 hp might sound high end to someone coming from a mp3 player and buds. Then a step up to a $400 amp will make a big impact. There are different levels of fidelity. I see a $1400 840C compared to $5k cdps. Where does the price/value seperate? Low fi ends and mid-fi starts where? Mid-fi ends and Hi-fi starts? What are the sonic differences between lo-mid-hi fi?

Coming from speaker systems, I have a good idea about sources, amps and speakers. I found a solid system that makes me happy. Moving into headphones, there are different needs. Portable, computer source, home. Headphones have a higher level of resolution needing a better front end. Each change in the link has some impact on the sound that is not as critical in a speaker system.

We need to seperate portable from computer and dedicated source. (where does a dac belong?) We also need a reference in cost and sonic levels to identify lo-mid-hi fi. Of course all of this means nothing if the material is not of the same level. A 128k mp3 on a hi end system will still sound poor.

To someone just getting into this hobby, it can be very frustrating to be told a budget system won't make their reference hps sound good. When you can buy a top of the line can for under $300, you can't expect to get top of the line performance from the same budget on a player/amp.

I took the route that you, boomana, and Duggeh seem to agree with. Headphones first, rest after. I'm actually pretty stoked with the way things are working out for me right now I should have some RS-2's soon along with Sextett's for other purposes. My DAC is a Zhoalu 2.5A and I'll be Ori modding it. I also should have a dedicated home amp around mid January I think things are going to work out fine for me and I'm glad I went this route. I also got to try out a lot of headphones via trading and wotnot What a good experience this has been so far.

Quote:



The matter is, in a broad sense, as you insinuate, subjective, however you would find among that subjectivity I expect a very close mean for where the line starts to cross, and it becomes easier to establish these lines if you use a 5 tier system in stead of a 3 tier one. low/middle/high is more difficult than entry/low/middle/high/reference to draw any distinct classifications. I think though that the drawing of these is not, ultimately, necessary so long as discussions relating to products at any level are referenced within that level. IE, no CMOY-R10 portable rigs, no SDS-KSC75 home rigs (although I'm sure I saw that one photographed somewhere).

Quote:



On this point I disagree slightly. A well encoded 128k MP3 on a high end system is something I would rather listen to than a lossless file on a poor system. This though is simply an aspect of my own philosophy though, the one that stipulates that if you get the input mostly right, you're onto a winner. Those who need more initial resolution than I do would rather have it though a "lesser" transducer system than the other way around. Horses for courses.

Quote:



I think that perhaps would should be made clear in such circumstances is that the $300 headphones should be alongside a $300 amplifier and a $300 audio source. Balance is more important to point out to people in the situation that you bring up than it is for those who knowing and knowledgeably have unbalanced "levels" in their systems. Again, its a matter of education and experience.

What really fires me up is when you try to give newbies info about this and you are screamed down by the low-fi crowd as just being a braindead gimp with too much money to throw around.

While I applaud boomana's efforts to improve things here, I think the bigger 'problem' on HF is the (dis)organization, not the content itself. Said another way: a newb with half a brain can find the answers they need, it just isn't very easy or efficient. Give me some context and I can make better use of the content.

There is no perfect forum though, especially when it is this large and busy. HF is a great database, and keep in mind that some people want to do the trial and error thing....when they post their 'errors', it doesn't really harm anyone. We can all see what's going on. (again, anyone with half a brain knows that the bigger the forum, the wider some of the experiences will deviate from 'standard'...so big grains of salt. Censoring or creating additional elitist heirarchies of members won't improve the SNR)

I seriously think that head-fi did a very good job at this a few years back. I came here looking for a can to beat bose... and the unanimous choice for "classical" people back in the day was the HD650. I spent my whole pot of money on it. But by then I had made a decision... upon enough reading I would build a "decent" headphone system.

there is disappointment in this hobby. After getting an audiophile USB and then getting a Meier HA1 MKII, none of the magical experiences, the 3d sound stage, the texture or involvement were there. I got angry and decided to upgrade my source.

Meets are important. Without meets I would have quit this hobby far sooner. for a person who didn't see much of an improvement for the first 400 dollars, I really needed the SF meet to show me what's possible and what's just not. After hearing Neil's lovely orpheus rig I decided to stick to it... for however many years it took to get there.

Starting out at an expensive and unbalanced system is okay... so long as you know that you're not going to step into high end status off the bat... things take time and systems are highly specialized for that person's specific tastes and desires. So i have to agree with boomana on this one... although I am "officially" a source first person.

This same type of attitude exists towards sources... people can get a zhoalu or benchmark and then ride all else off as junk or think that it doesn't get better... believe me it does.

all this being said, boomana is right in that we don't do a good job at conveying the necessities of a good system as much as we really should... and at times we are trapped by the prettiness of the RS-1 or HD650... and don't think of what they really need.

and duggeh... that squeezbox is a layman's "high end" soundcard.

That it is, but its still better than the Audigy. Plus its a good transport for any future DAC upgrade. And I've gone for the Squeezebox/Aleph buy instead of saving up all of my pennies for Quad ESL 57.

All I have to say on this subject is that cost of equipment does not alsways reflects performance. Careful matching of even cheap components will provide excellent results.

Headphone system are the same as speaker systems. You need to think what sound you like, what matters to you and based on that build a system by matching all of the components. Instead of wasting money on one good components and building a system around it. I have been playing around in the audiophool hobby since 1990 and these are my 5 cents.

When reading ANYONE's posts, we should keep in mind:

- their musical taste and biases (nobody is 100% objective)
- their headphone experience
- their general audio(phile) experience
- their goals in posting, in case of ulterior motive
- their consistency in posting factual and unbiased info

You read the forums for a while and pretty soon narrow it down to a small handful of posters that you 'trust' to give you meaningful data.

Quote:



Being new, I have to agree. I am a bit overwhelmed with all the information. I had to spend almost a week reading and reading before I could understand how to put 2 and 2 together.

I come straight to the forums and don't even recall what is on the frontpage. My suggestion is to take a look at cubeowner.com and their faqs section. It was a great way to start when I bought a Apple Cube without searching the forums for answers or posting questions. It's all black and white. It may be different here with so much information, but it's a start.

I thank all of you for your knowledge and experiences.

If the op is referring to me, he is slightly incorrect as I had my 'system' already, tried the 701's, and disliked them. (whether you think the system wasn't up to snuff with the 701's or not aside).

Finding information about a popular headphone can be a huge pain - there are thousands of posts about k701's, hd650's, dt 770/880/990's. Many of them may even be wrong.

Without something like a headphone sq/pairings wiki, sifting through 4+ years of forum cruft just isn't an efficient way to figure out whether a pair of headphones may work for you. Instead you'll find a lengthy post based on new toy euphoria, or claims that x quality really is great/pretty good, when it is actually a reaction to a deficiency (k701 bass, for example).

Actually, a wiki is probably a good idea. All the cool forums have them now.

Quote:



Quote:



I'm completely against censoring or elistist hierarchies. I like the diversity of opinions on this forum, and I continue to learn from those with more experience than I as well as those who are new here. granodemostasa is saying what I mean.

Quote:



I completely agree, which is why talking about matching of components, or building a system when someone asks for a headphone recommendation would be more helpful than tossing out a list of cans.

Quote:



Perhaps the best advice yet. I may add that checking to see that they have a history of posting about what they've actually heard/owned, and not just read about, is pretty important as well.

Not knowing precisely your own expectations and goals is one mistake far too many people make IMO.

If your are a super-critical listener who listens to lots of unamplified music and can't do without that last micro-nuance and nano-dynamics, then you should realize your goals require HEAVY damage to the wallet to the tune of SOTA source, HE90/60/O2/K1K/R10 type of 'phone, and no-compromise amp, not to mention the darn cables. Even if you can spend the $, it still takes ages to fine-tune the miscellaneous details.

Any less than that, be prepared for a long road of disappointments and frustrations, not QUITE getting there. UNLESS you lower your expectations and goals.

But if your goal is to simply have some nice tunes to rock out to away from home, in the gym, etc, something like Super.Fi 5 Pro's out of a Meizu M6 will be completely satisfying and just as valid choice.