[EraserXIV]

Quote:

 
Those "new" pads are really so much better ?

 
They're not "better", but if they are a firmer material it may prolong the time until you have to change them. It is the flattening of the pads over time that causes the sonic differences. If you have one of the old pads that is not flattened, it will sound the same as a new pad that is not flattened.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Quote:

 
They're not "better", but if they are a firmer material it may prolong the time until you have to change them. It is the flattening of the pads over time that causes the sonic differences. If you have one of the old pads that is not flattened, it will sound the same as a new pad that is not flattened.

You could be right but if the foam is softer to begin with they'd compress more and move drivers closer to ears even when new, plus firmer foam must have slightly different reflective/acoustic characteristics I'd guess.
 
Of course I don't remember how my pads felt when they were new but honestly they did not have that much mileage and yet foam inside was very soft comparing to the new ones.

 

[skeptic]

It seems odd that moving the transducer further away from your ear would increase trebles...

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought the reason premium iems (for example, westone 4s and ie8s) have such major treble roll off on their graphs (while sounding mostly flat up to around 14k if you run a sweep) is that trebles increase in relative/perceived loudness as the driver moves closer to your ear.

Makes me wonder if the pads are actually acting sort of like acoustic foam, and absorbing and reducing certain higher frequencies as they break down.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Quote:

It seems odd that moving the transducer further away from your ear would increase trebles...

Counterintuitive, but this is exactly what happens to Denons with Angle pads and Mad Dogs with new Alpha Pads.
Mark at Lawton Audio was trying to describe the effect, not sure that's a scientific enough explanation though.
http://www.lawtonaudio.com/page10.html
 
Quote:

Originally posted by MarkL
 
...
The factory pads’ lean-ness and lack of stuffing of course makes them very thin, which places the powerful driver very close to the ear. This provides the music no real room to breathe, collapsing the soundstage, and streaming a cacophonous “wall of sound” directly into the ear that can be fatiguing over time with certain music types. 
 
Re-Position the Drivers for Optimal Sound & Music
Moving the driver away, if only slightly, can have a surprising effect in a headphone, reducing the physical sensations produced by the vibrating driver and sound waves. Because you can no longer “feel” the little drivers working away, this helps you relax and forget you are wearing headphones. The sound snaps into focus with much better separation between formerly competing instrumental lines, increasing overall musical coherence and cohesion. Potential for treble fatigue is greatly reduced.

 

[Flisker]

Graphs looks interesteting I think I would be willing to buy new pads. Could you guys check my photos please ? I think those are old ones, if I'am not wrong.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 
 
 
Thanks 

 

[Flisker]

Quote:

It seems odd that moving the transducer further away from your ear would increase trebles...

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought the reason premium iems (for example, westone 4s and ie8s) have such major treble roll off on their graphs (while sounding mostly flat up to around 14k if you run a sweep) is that trebles increase in relative/perceived loudness as the driver moves closer to your ear.

Makes me wonder if the pads are actually acting sort of like acoustic foam, and absorbing and reducing certain higher frequencies as they break down.

 
Foam in pads have impact on treble in my opinion, because when I did tape mode on Grado SR225i which is just modifying outer side of pad ... result was lowered treble => so I guess different foam can change it too.

 

[olor1n]

Lol. I don't think Sennheiser has changed the pad material. Usually when differences between new and old pads are discussed, it's about their softening, flattening and deformation over time due to wear.

I don't doubt that companies make subtle changes to current models to address widely criticised issues. I do doubt though that Sennheiser has continued to tweak the HD650 to appease Head-Fiers. If there has been any real change in its life time, it is likely to have occurred after fire destroyed production facilities in Ireland and the line was moved elsewhere some years back. Availability of material over time could also force their hand, but I suspect they would chose alternatives that minimised changes to SQ. I doubt they would gamble and affect the sales of a headphone that has been a success for them.

 

[devhen]

Sure but we're not talking about HUGE changes in sound signature. If the graphs Andrew_WOT posted are to be trusted, they show a change in sound signature between "new new" pads and "new old" pads, meaning the difference is not caused by used and worn down pads. Rather, it implies that the new pads likely have slightly different materials and/or shape.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Quote:

Sure but we're not talking about HUGE changes in sound signature. If the graphs Andrew_WOT posted are to be trusted, they show a change in sound signature between "new new" pads and "new old" pads, meaning the difference is not caused by used and worn down pads. Rather, it implies that the new pads likely have slightly different materials and/or shape.

I am pretty sure that meant to be just "new" and "worn out", at least that was my impression from reading the link.

 

[devhen]

Quote:

I am pretty sure that meant to be just "new" and "worn out", at least that was my impression from reading the link.

 
My bad if that's the case. Anyone know for sure?

 

[olor1n]

LOL $1000?  If you can find brand new HD800s for $1000 please let me know!!

 

oppss.....mine was 2xx less.  :blink:

Brand new? Where from?

 

[skeptic]

Quote:

Counterintuitive, but this is exactly what happens to Denons with Angle pads and Mad Dogs with new Alpha Pads.
Mark at Lawton Audio was trying to describe the effect, not sure that's a scientific enough explanation though.
http://www.lawtonaudio.com/page10.html
 

 
Thanks for sharing that excerpt Andrew!  Upon further reflection, this is probably a big part of the reason so many of us prefer Sure pads on our fostex.  They are just a bit thicker (and more comfortable) than stock.  
 
Still - I'd love to understand the reason for the change in perception that you and Lawton have described.  Maybe it has something to do with allowing the outer ear to naturally direct the sound rather than placing a driver right up against the ear canal.    
 
On a related note - if a change in pads (or pad wear over time) impacts FR to this degree, you've really got to wonder about the state of the pads when headroom, innerfidelity, goldenears, etc. take their FR measurements.         

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Quote:

 
My bad if that's the case. Anyone know for sure?

Pretty sure.
http://rinchoi.blogspot.com/2012/04/introduction-it-is-generally-known-that.html
Quote:

Originally posted by Ududa
And Below is the measurement with old cushions, about a year or two old?

 
I am just saying that my presumably old design pads with relatively low mileage have noticeably softer foam than new one. But it could be just age deterioration.
The sonic difference after switching to new pads was quite shocking to me, don't remember ever enjoying HD650 that much.

 

[devhen]

Quote:

 
On a related note - if a change in pads (or pad wear over time) impacts FR to this degree, you've really got to wonder about the state of the pads when headroom, innerfidelity, goldenears, etc. take their FR measurements.         

 
I'm pretty sure they all test brand new headphones with stock pads.

 

[bracko]

Just a hint: The pads on HD650 are actually washable. Use mild detergent and rinse with a small amount of softener and they will be as good as new. The stiffness and the shape will be back. At least I think it is worth trying this before spending $70 on new ones.