you cannot trust your eyes, so why trust your ears?
Jul 8, 2009 at 10:35 PM Post #121 of 132
Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Only a philistine gives merit to what is said based on how much respect he has for the person speaking.


Ridiculous. The respect (or lack thereof) for the person speaking is based on them having been proven correct (or incorrect) before.

If a drunken braggart who has never caught a fish tells you he knows the best fishing hole but the guy who owns the bait & tackle shop tells you a different place, which do you choose (and why)?.
 
Jul 8, 2009 at 10:38 PM Post #122 of 132
It takes a genius like you to shower such pedantry on us. Next are you going to describe in a full page MLA style essay how we are supposed to stand up and sit down and walk around?
 
Jul 8, 2009 at 11:41 PM Post #125 of 132
You're the troll trying to take cheap shots at me. We all know you don't give a damn about people's subjective experience when it comes to cables and so you putting on airs pretending to care about PhilS' opinion is just a bunch of noise. And if you think you're so magnanimous to heed someone else's opinion about two amps, your teachers and parents obviously made fatal mistakes in teaching you civil discourse because you don't resolve discussions calling out people saying they are liars. The same with most anti-cablers, they don't know how to hold civil discussion, don't know how to get to the root of any problem with any modicum of civility. All your dumb bullet-point post about respect and belief just goes to show how uncivil and intolerant people like you are. What people like you really want is a good shepherd wearing a white coat to shove things down your throat because you are too afraid to trust your own subjective findings and lack the scientific integrity to find out for yourself if the subjective findings of others is real. If you really did look into cables and didn't notice a difference you wouldn't use such petty tactics like saying you don't respect me to convince people there is no difference between cables. You're just stuck in theoretical land and like to throw **** at people from your high tower.
 
Jul 9, 2009 at 12:17 AM Post #126 of 132
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Are they any comparisons where you can trust your ears without a blind test? If you're using the headphone out from a cheap receiver to listen to your headphones, and you buy a nice Ray Samuels amp (let's say the Apache, for example), and the RS amp sounds better to you, are you entitled, without a blind test, to (1) tell others on this forum with some degree of reliability or respect that the RS amp is an improvement, and (2) have confidence that your ears are actually hearing an improvement? Or does that fact that you did not conduct a blind test in this instance undercut your entire conclusion and basis for offering your opinion?

P.S. Assume for the purposes of argument that in this instance we cannot compare measurements.



I repeat this question again, in part to get this thread back on track, and to see if any other "objectivists" or "skeptics" have any thoughts to offer.
 
Jul 9, 2009 at 1:35 AM Post #127 of 132
I'd like to add that blind-testing does not dictate any of the things which are typically used as argument against it. The main thing which is required is that it is truly blind. The practicalities of conducting a blind-test however typically dictates a certain protocol, and this could prevent subjects from performing like they would in the comfort of their home.

It would be extremely expensive to eliminate all unnaturalness of a blind-test, which is likely why it has never been done. For amplifiers, for example, you'd have to build a box around the amplifiers which looked identical. If amplifier A and B weighed differently or produced different amounts of heat, that would have to be compensated by adding weights and heater elements etc. The volume knobs would have to be operated indirectly taking different gains into consideration. You get the picture.

But it would indeed be possible to eliminate all the things which are commonly put against audio blind-testing thus letting the subjects listen to the gear in the comfort of their home for as long as they liked.

I'm just saying this because it sometimes appears that people think that blind testing in itself dictates that you have to listen under certain awkward circumstances, while in reality this is dictated by the practicalities of making sure the test is truly (double) blind. Eliminating these factors would be extremely expensive but it's possible.

For cables it would be a lot easier to construct a test which enables the subjects to listen the way they prefer for as long as they like thereby eliminating all possible objections against the test procedure... maybe this has already been done.

I'm open to the possibility that there could be factors which makes a difference between gear that otherwise measure identically on parameters that current scientific understanding finds important, but I must admit to finding it highly unlikely (in the same category as UFOs). I find the alternative placebo explanation much, much more likely and I am a little puzzled as to why this explanation is in such bad standing. Placebo is good for you! It happens all the time, for all of us. Why is this explanation not accepted? I don't get it.

If nothing else, the continued lack of success in blind-testing puts things in perspective when you read stuff like: "night and day difference", "it was immediately apparent", "amp A walks all over amp B" and so on and so forth. I mean, if this mega-difference disappears just because you're not at home, or just because there's another person in the room, or just because you can only listen for 5 minutes, or just because you don't sit in your own chair...

Very interesting thread, but please be civil OK
smily_headphones1.gif
 
Jul 9, 2009 at 1:56 AM Post #128 of 132
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dane /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'm open to the possibility that there could be factors which makes a difference between gear that otherwise measure identically on parameters that current scientific understanding finds important, but I must admit to finding it highly unlikely (in the same category as UFOs). I find the alternative placebo explanation much, much more likely and I am a little puzzled as to why this explanation is in such bad standing. Placebo is good for you! It happens all the time, for all of us. Why is this explanation not accepted? I don't get it.


I for one accept it as a possibility, but I would like to get some real long-term blind tests done.

Quote:

If nothing else, the continued lack of success in blind-testing puts things in perspective when you read stuff like: "night and day difference", "it was immediately apparent", "amp A walks all over amp B" and so on and so forth.


This is definitely a good point. However, we hear this statement a lot: "There has never been a double-blind testing proving cables are audible." I don't "get around" a whole lot in the audio world, so I don't know whether this is really true. But it's a suspect statement in one regard: if you do many tests, each at a 5% significance level, then 1 in 20 will reject the null hypothesis from chance alone! So if there are really many blind tests being run on cables, and the audiophiles doing them are eager to spread the word, we should have many, many reports of tests that rejected the null hypothesis. Yet it is hard to find a single report.

What are we to conclude? I can say one thing for certain: audiophiles in general show little interest in running blind tests, and don't really care about reporting the results. You know the maxim: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?" In this case, it appears that no one is really looking for evidence---I mean no one is running long-term blind tests with sufficient numbers of trials to reduce Type II error to something reasonable.
 
Jul 9, 2009 at 3:21 AM Post #129 of 132
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dane /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'd like to add that blind-testing does not dictate any of the things which are typically used as argument against it.


I should add: I try to always make clear my issue is with blind tests that distort or don't control the listening context, not "blindness" in general. I think tests should be blind. I, and a lot of people, raise objections to quick-switch ABX tests---not because I think they are the only kind of blind test, but because they are by far the most common one, and as nearly as I can tell, all "scientific knowledge" about audio and the ear's capabilities are based on such tests. So if you have an objection to them, it's very relevant.
 
Jul 10, 2009 at 6:41 PM Post #130 of 132
The premise of this thread seems to be to draw parallels between the visual and a auditory senses. Well, I found some interesting examples which, if we draw parallels to audio, could be interpreted as support for the notion that A/B testing is indeed not suited for detecting even quite obvious changes in sound.

Here are a few samples of change blindness. The short sequences will flip between two images which appear identical at first, but which are indeed significantly different. Can you spot the difference? Don't give up, I was several minutes to find some of them. It'll blow your mind.

Something to ponder if the same exists for audio...

Examples of change blindness.
 
Jul 10, 2009 at 7:21 PM Post #131 of 132
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I repeat this question again, in part to get this thread back on track, and to see if any other "objectivists" or "skeptics" have any thoughts to offer.


Yes - if you are comparing gear where you expect a difference. If you don't hear one, there is no need to test further, assuming that nonblind listening bias is one-way (biased towards greater difference).
 
Jul 10, 2009 at 8:25 PM Post #132 of 132
Quote:

Originally Posted by ph0rk /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Yes - if you are comparing gear where you expect a difference. If you don't hear one, there is no need to test further, assuming that nonblind listening bias is one-way (biased towards greater difference).


Sorry, but I don't follow you again. When you say "yes," which question are you answering? And maybe you could expand on your point a little, just to make it clear what you are asserting, so there's no confusion on my part when I respond.
 

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