[tantadruj]

In the US, we can buy it brand new from Adorama for $599

I see. The question was more about brand reliability and trustworthiness.

Something else I should add to this is that owning an overly analytical headphone can often times render many of your favorite songs entirely unlistenable. If a song is older and has thin mastering and production

Haven't thought about the old stuff/recordings. Good point. Thx

I would take the Hifiman XS over the HD650 personally

What would be sub 1k price alternative to XS that you would still pick over HD650?

 

[Stevko]

Grado rs2x

 

[msing539]

What would be sub 1k price alternative to XS that you would still pick over HD650?

Assuming you mean brand new? If I had to buy brand new, I'd still take the Denon D5200 for a closed back. If I wanted open, maybe the LCD-2 based on my tastes. Or an open-box Hifiman Arya Stealth. Used, probably an HD800S if I could only own one headphone in that price range.

 

[peterinvan]

An example of such a headphone?

No one has mentioned Grado phones yet. I have LCD-XC, Focal Elegia, Oppo PM-3 and others that I have sold or gifted.

I was recently gifted a pair of Grado SR325is (2014?). I fitted some new Grado OEM G pads, and am captivated by the pinpoint sound stage and instrument isolation. The forward mids work magic with vocals.
I installed a lightweight balanced cable, and with the weight reduction they are comfortable on my head.
Not bass monsters, but with acoustic bass (I am a jazz fan), the bass is fast and gives me a good "wood" sound off a stand-up bass. I use a Cayin RU6 DAC/amp out of my iPad, and I get good volume and that special R2R clarity.

So if you want to try an inexpensive open headphone, the SR80 would be a good place to start.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

To all of them, the reviewers, everything they review sounds great. Be it 200€ item, 1500€ item or even 7500€ AB1266 Phi TC. How can so many headphones of different price ranges all sound so fantastic? That should not be possible.

Because things can perform well for the price.

Can a GT86 or Miata provide the same visceral thrill as a Ferrari with an 9000rpm V8 or a Lamborghini with a 8000rpm V10? Hell no. But you get an agile and zippy car for the price.

Can a Fireblade provide the same thrill as a Panigale? In some ways, yes...except it won't be like the old V-Twins that can be a bit eager to wheelie or as high tech as the new V4, but the Fireblade is still good for its price. Are you really willing to fork 70% more money for a narrower bike, for one?

Is a $90 shirogami slicer by Tojiro or $90 aogami veg chopper by Kanemasa worse than anything personally made by master bladesmith Saji? No, because that sushi you eat including at the fancy restaurants are still more likely to have been sliced by a Tojiro and the ramen you enjoyed had the vegetable components chopped by a Kanemasa or Tojiro if not something cheaper like a Kai more than a freaking Shun. In short: Tojiro's entry level shirogami line and their DP line are good for the price.

Is an Alienware or Legion guaranteed to be faster or at least quieter than a Nitro? Well...yes, especially last year if it's about being quieter. But the Nitro is still good for the price if your're not using it as a desktop replacement and prefer the cables come out the back or don't mind the cable mess and now that it's farther from you the noise is not as bad.

Same thing with audio. Is my HD600 as good as the HD800? Hell no. Would I have paid 7X more money than the HD600 I got used to get a new HD800? Hell no. Would I pay 5X that same money to get a used HD800? Probably not.

Even Sennheiser says, on their website, that HD205 provide excellent sound quality.

It's called marketing. It's not always scummy, it's just that it's not always a good idea to pump up the idea of value if you're marketing. I mean sure that might work if you quote the price of the cheaper V8 Ferrari ie the California to sell a GT86 to people that can't afford a California (or a Miata for those who care about the car being a convertible), but that doesn't mean Tojiro and Sakai Takayuki to just go around laughing at how much a honyaki by Saji is.

In the case of Sennheiser, it's because they know the people looking for a $50 headphone are not the people who are as informed as someone looking for an HD800. That's not outright scummy, it's just that even though these are comparable products made by the same company, the buyers are not the same sort of people. It's less like the difference between the sort of people looking at Corollas and Camrys and more like the difference between older people looking for a Corolla and someone looking for a Supra. It's either they're not really into cars and jsut want something reliable and only slightly cool, or even if they know enough about cars to hang out with other people tinkering with their cars, they know well enough to just put a sound system in the Corolla and blast music at the venue than try to race the guy in the Supra.

Sennheiser HD650	allegedly good sound quality but old make and fragile plastic build quality

I have the HD600 and it's "fragile" only in the sense that a 1990 Corolla would have more things break than a W124. Toyota is still otherwise reliable, but more importantly, you can get parts.

The only thing I've had to replace on my HD600 are the pads and cables...which is like switching out tyres and radiator hoses. I haven't broken the cable socket springs because I don't cable-roll, I just appreciate that if I break the cable I don't need a soldering iron. Some flaking on the headband paint, but I'm more frustrated that there isn't more flaking so I can have a reason to actually sand it down and repaint it. If this was an HD650, I'd just get a new headband instead of repainting it, because Sennheiser parts are like Toyota parts.

Audeze brand	allegedly overall overpriced planars with awful tuning, yet supposedly LCD-5 work well out of the box

I may not spend on the HD800 but if I hadn't gotten my HD600 yet by the time the LCD-2C came out I'd get the Audeze. Now I just don't feel like spending the difference after selling the HD600.

But, at the end of the day, to really enjoy them, headphones should be electrostatic?

I had my feet up listening to the HD600, a dynamic driver headphone. I just took a break now because I was listening with it cranked up and I don't plan on getting hearing damage.

I mean enjoying headphones solely for the design seems like saying you can't enjoy a car that isn't cinquevalvole or a bike that isn't a desmosedici. I mean I can appreciate those things and would buy them, but I won't tell people that buying a four cylinder Kawasaki or a Nissan RWD drive coupe would not be any fun or that you can only have fun getting drunk on Moet Chandon so you might as well just throw that Guinnes in the trash (I'd take the Guinness, personally; or Modelo N-Word).

If someone here has too much time, feel free to bother yourself with ordering the above in terms of sound quality. Starting with the best + add your own choices.

HD6XX or HD58X. But that doesn't say for sure whether you will like them in the same manner that a guy that wants to feel like a bladesmith made a knife with his order in mind would just be happy with my Sakai Genkichi with a rustic blade shoved into an oddly well-finished and highly lacquered handle that seems out of place for the literal rough edges on the blade. Same way I can tell you a Kawasaki or a Honda can be fun, but I dunno, maybe you want a narrower bike, you're tall enough to not have a problem with the high seat, and you want an engine that either feels like the bike equivalent of a Shelby Cobra (old Ducati twins) or a Ferrari (new V4 engines).

On analytical listening - allegedly you can hear too much, like all the mistakes in the music and such things. Makes me wonder, why is that a headphones problem? Should not the music creators make sure there are no mistakes in their products?

Technically, you're not wrong. But music isn't video games where they can test the game on every console they'll release or on every current and reasonably modern graphics card and processor. If music was made with that kind of beta test instead of, say, the B&W speakers at Abbey Road, not only would they have to test on waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more speaker+amp, headphone+amp, and IEM+amp combo, they also have to test speakers in every room and every car and all those systems with several people with very different ear shapes and make sure some of them have hyperacusis.

Not even Metallica rolling over Napster or SM Entertainment with all their money made by SNSD, Taeyeon, Hyoyeon, Red Velvet, and Aespa has the budget for that. Hell, not even Michael Jackson has the money for that and that was before he had this many headphones and IEMs to worry about.
Oh and uh...that's just mostly speakers. Mastering a track for playback on speakers makes up a good chunk of what goes wrong in a headphone, kind of like not having a Maclaren F1 makes for most of the things that go wrong in car audio that requires a processor to fix. With speakers both of your ears hear both speakers within a room; with headphones each ear only hears one speaker. If the recording wasn't binaural ie specifically mastered anticipating that problem, you're gonna have problems, same way that mastering an album for someone sitting dead center will have worse problems sitting in a car that is not the McLaren F1 worse than just having a head dead center between two headphone earpieces.

On analytical listening - allegedly you can hear too much, like all the mistakes in the music and such things. Makes me wonder, why is that a headphones problem? Should not the music creators make sure there are no mistakes in their products? One does not simply listen analytically for enjoyment? Must buy headphones which do not produce the sound as recorded but as something else?

The key word to that is "too much." There's being able to hear that the way the sy

How bothersome and/or annoying is the process of headphone equalization?

Depends. What tools/feaetures are available to you, and do you want to figure it out yourself or do you want me to give you the actual things to put in on a tool I'm familiar with so I can more easily tell you where you can see where to do anything? What do you expect out of it, do you want me to just flatten the curves as well as is technologically possible, or do you want music so shining, shimmering, so splendid, sending you soaring through endless diamond skies that your heart decides you've been taken to a whole new world and gained a fantastic point of view from a dazzling place you never knew with no one to tell you that, no, that $10,000 power cable is not actually doing anything or say that you're only dreaming?

See, it's kind of like overclocking. You can get an MSI motherboard or laptop so I can tell you how to get to the BIOS and what you should look for because I'm familiar with MSI a little bit more than Gigabyte (don't bother getting me to work on ASRock and I have not worked on EVGA motherboards at all), but there are variances with chips and programs so you may have one game or app I don't have and your overclock or undervolt may crash running that but I don't encounter the problem because I don't have it. Similarly you may expect to get to 5.0ghz all-core on the CPU and 2500mhz on the GPU, but good luck getting that Ryzen to 5.0ghz; hell, that's not even a guarantee on Intel i5, and all that assumes you have good cooling. Ditto getting to 2500mhz on NVidia without liquid nitrogen involved, but hey, you can get that on a 6000 series Radeon! And at least we have sure metrics, ie, FPS and frametimes...oh wait why does it say you barely improved the average FPS? (maybe look at your 1% FPS, that's usually where you gain ground with overclocking) Wait you're still not winning? Er..yeah there's a reason why Der Bauer and those dudes making money off playing Counterstrike are not the same people - this might involve the same toys but they're completely different specializations. Kind of like how there's Q and then there's 007.

Then there are those who say that ESS9018 or the PCM1794 DAC chips, found in DAC devices, are in phones, tablets, onboard sound cards and how DAC is not needed at all, unless you pay a lot of money for it, and how capable amplifiers should be used instead.

If you're driving an IEM with not too low nominal impedance and has high enough sensitivity ie easy to drive, you don't need an external DAC other than the integrated audio chip in your phone. Kind of like how some games will run fine off of a Ryzen 5800U or 5800H integrated Vega graphics, or like, a Steam Deck with a 760p screen.
Other games can run faster or can run just as fast at 1080p if you have a 2022 notebook with a 6800U or 6800H with RDNA2 graphics, or like, that new Aya Neo.

Now if you need more power then you're gonna need an amp. The problem with a phone audio chip is it has an amplifier stage in it, which invariably adds noise that can be amplified by the next amp, ie, this isn't a Gundam bear rifle that can be hooked up in series so the normal rifle pair for gunning down mobile suits and small mobile armors can now punch through battlecruisers. Or...well...actually they're similar, except you don't care about noise if you're punching through a battlecruiser in freaking space. So then you need an external DAC or DAC-HPamp so you only have the other amp or the built in amp on the latter. Which is kind of like how if a laptop can't run a game you use Thunderbolt or you get a gaming laptop but it doesn't have a Mux switch so you get much higher FPS but have input lag or you don't even get that high FPS and still have some more input lag than if you were on a desktop or a laptop with a Mux switch.

Do you understand my confusion yet?

Yes. You've been reading a lot of stuff from audiophiles debating every minutiae of detail and some (though not all of it) was probably just from not being able to blind test and level match everything and was probably placebo while not having tried anything to give us a clearer direction on where you might want to go from there.

In short...you're not sure of the coordinates of your destination, but you're also not getting a signal for your current location, so Google Maps is just as confused.

So, i am looking for headphones, case anyone still wonders what this is all about.

a) Open or closed?
Recommendations for either would be great. If recommended headphones require amplification please also suggest the DAC with Amp unit or just an Amp unit if DAC unit is not required.

AudioGD NFB-11.28 >> Massdrop X Sennheiser HD58X or HD6XX

As for EQ...what are you using as a source? Not sure the NFB-11.28's USB input works with Android or iOS but if you'll use those get Neutron Music Player and only use that with locally stored FLAC etc and input the following:

Band 1 : Low shelf, Q1.0, 35hz, +2dB
Band 2 : Peak, Q1.0, 3500hz, -3dB
Band 3 : Peak, Q1.4, 5500hz, -6dB

If you want to use audio streaming services and a global EQ there's Neutralizer for Android and you can just follow the instructions there.

Note:
1. I now use a DAP with line out (it fixes the output of the integrated audio chip to 2V - not a discrete output stage, but it's fine), a Meier Cantate.2, and HD600 with Brainwavz angled pads, all thanks to Android USB audio drivers starting to screw up again last year.
2. I don't really miss the EQ from when I used the Android as a server. It's not just a remote so the DAP just sits right next to the player instead of needing a stand.
3. Mind the ambient noise because these headphones are wide open.

b) Over-ear or on-ear?
Over ear, so my ear is inside the cup, correct? Better comfort? Don't know what is best.

Well do you mind having the clamping pressure against your earlobes or do you really want Grados.

Note: sound isolation with circumaurals only really works with closed backs; with open backs, it does help with the bass a bit, but with enough ambient noise that won't matter.

c) What is my budget?
Up to 800€ for headphones + DAC with Amp

You still have change leftover from the combo I listed above.

d) What do i intend to do with them?
Listen to all kinds of music and sounds.

I listen mostly to metal but also listen to jazz, blues, and K-Pop on the HD600.

e) Other requirements?
Comfortable, reliable/durable. Microphone is not important. I do not play any instruments. I do not record or mix.

You need to bend the steel frame on these Sennheisers when fresh out of the box. Hipyotech on YT just gave up on them immediately. The problem is the box is as compact as they can make them to fit more into each crate, that then makes the frame take on a more closed shape that would fit a grey alien but a human would need to get it to adjust either by wearing it over time or just bending the steel frame the other way. Just fully extend the arms, then put one thumb on the center then bend the earcup outward, move to the other side, then back to the first side and put your thumb next to the gimbal then bend, then the other side. Hold at each point for about 10secs, cycle through several times.

At this point i wonder, and this is important, in terms of € [or $ if you prefer, they are almost at parity] at what € value does the quality no longer proportionally increases with the price - diminishing returns, so when the price starts to increase substantially for each gain in quality. I wonder about this for headphones, DAC, amplifiers, pre-amplifiers, etc.

If you believe there is a good reason, a very good reason, as to why i should spend more than 1000€ on headphones alone and why DX3 is just not it...please elaborate. I can wait for a few months, put money aside each month, switch my diet to noodles and water...

That's even harder to quantify than a GT86 or 400Z vs a Ferrari.

You have to understand this isn't like PC parts where you get a clear metric of how each GPU can net you FPS average and at average of 1% lows, which only gets blurry when games utilize the CPU instead of being heavily GPU bound, since benchmarks will be on TOTL CPUs with every tier graphics card precisely to remove CPU bottlenecks apart from when they test at 1080p (possibly with FSR and DLSS too), which doesn't show you how a modern i5/Ryzen5 can still get you good 1% lows on Total War (at best the review for the mid-tier CPU includes games...but it will use the best GPU so it will not be a bottleneck) or GamersNexus testing turn time length on Civ (so you can see that an overclocked i7 will handily beat everything else and decide how impatient you are and how much you can spend based on being impatient).

I mean sure there are measurements of each headphone's response, but it's not like GamersNexus CPU cooler flatness tests where they show you how high the variances spike etc and where the clamp on the CPU die is weak due to the flatness of the coldplate/exposed pipes and the mounting mechanism. You don't get a condensed representation of how flat the response is and how wild the variances are, which also isn't useful to begin with because then such wouldn't get you anything better than the response graph. If anything it will tell you less, ie, where exactly the variances are. In general, go for as smooth a graph as possible, avoid very tall peaks in the 2000hz to 8000hz range.

The keyword there is "in general." That basically says the HD650 and LCD-2Classic are the safest bets, but people will say they sound boring because there's not enough sizzle to the cymbals or the scream in a guitar solo. The HE400i looks like a joke about Kansas on one side but looks like a Pacific Ocean topographical map on the other side, which is why some people can't hear the bass even if, objectively, it has the most accurate bass (on top of which, these are not speakers pounding your chest with bass because physics, so perception and expectation really screw with headphones more than rooms do for speakers because at least you can acoustically treat a room and change toe-in angles, speaker distance from the wall, etc etc).

It all still comes down to whether you like the sound or not. I may like the HD6x0 and the K701/K702 as a nice average, and also the HE400i/4XX but I can't say if YOU will like them. There will always be some trial and error involved. That's why before I bought my first system for my car I listened to a lot of cars with aftermarket systems first; before I got my home speakers I listened to a lot of speakers first only to find out that while they worked great in the flat I used as a college dorm they actually sucked when I moved back into our old home (wood inner wall to one side, glass and concrete outer wall on the other), but I didn't just replace them with any headphone (thought I had the Grado Sr225 at the time). I listened to a lot of headphones before going for the HD600 as my speaker replacement; even then I liked the K701 more but it can sound drastically different depending on what amp was driving it and decided the HD600 was the safe choice. If I had gotten a deal on something like the Cantate.2 before I got the headphones I would have picked the K701.

I am not in a hurry to buy and i wish for something that will last me for a minimum of 5 and up to 10 years. I have no money or interest to constantly "upgrade" or change the equipment or to have a boutique selection of multiple headphones.

thx in advance for any and all input/responses

Bought my HD600 in 2010, Cantate.2 in 2012. I only got a Pangea HP101 in 2015 as a gift because my Cantate.2 was acting up. Still listening with the HD600 and the Cantate or the Pangea if I'm at my desk. The other stuff I spent on in that period? Got an Aurisonics ASG-1.3, Fender bought them and killed the line so I got a Westone2 when it went on sale, Westone refused to honor the warranty claiming the distributor that sold it is not authorized (they won't even answer me who was authorized in the prior years so I can clarify if I got it after their contract expired, but still, what was the point of registering it?) for so I ordered a Fiio which even at regular price is not as expensive as this Westone; a DAP because Android USB drivers were screwing up again; cables and earpads; etc...in short it was because I broke or was trying to not break portable gear or my source unit for both mobile and home use finally ticked me off (it didn't help Android phones that they no longer have headphone jacks now).

Tube amplifiers serve the high impedance headphones, not recommended for low impendence ones? Lyr 2 is ok when used with something called LISST tubes? Too much specifics for me, complicates things.

Output Transformerless Tube amplifiers and transformer-coupled output stage tube amps are two very different topologies.

OTL tube amps are designed specifically to maximize power delivery into high impedance loads, meaning they'll deliver the most power when presented with a 300ohm load, and in some cases, the 150ohm output might actually be a little bit lower than the output into a 600ohm load. Very generally speaking this can be a problem since lower impedance tends to mean lower sensitivity, ie, needs more power, although Grados have high sensitivity compared to their peers and of course you have newer designs than what came out in the 2000s. The other problem even if sensitivity can compensate is that the lack of a transformer tends to result in a high output impedance on the amp, so when presented with a load impedance that is way, way, way lower, you'll get distortion that alters the response. A 120ohm to 150ohm output impedance OTL amp driving a 300ohm headphone can boost the midrange a little bit, but can make a 62ohm headphone sound like a tin can or make a Grado have messy bass. That's not absolute though - it can mess up the sound in other ways, kind of like how my old integrated amp with a 138ohm output impedance headphone output makes every low impedance headphone sound like a tin can but doesn't boost the midrange on the HD600.

Transformer-coupled tube amps (and there are many topologies other than just what a transformer does on these amps) can have low output impedance that it would take very low impedance IEMs for that to be a problem (and the IEM's sensitivity can make for other problems), but not all transformer-coupled tube amps nor solid state amps for that matter have low output impedance.

 

[tantadruj]

AudioGD NFB-11.28 >> Massdrop X Sennheiser HD58X or HD6XX

You wrote a lot, i will have to go over certain parts more than once.

How would you compare Audio GD NFB-11.28 to combination of Topping d10s+a50s Together they cost about the same. Is it like with washer drier combo where the single unit uses more energy and resources than separate machines, not to mention how drying damages your clothes even more so than when in a separate unit, even if it costs about the same as both combined.

Or if you dislike or do not know topping an alternative would be the combination of Schiit Modi 3E+Magni 3 I haven't checked much reviews as far as Schiit goes.

If i am to buy Sennheiser it would probably be HD660s. Everything is suppose to be even and neutral. As i have no music preference that would probably suit me. Maybe. Guessing. And the next one in line is about 1300€ more expensive.

HD660s sensitivity and impedance suggest it doesn't need a lot of amplification. There are even reviews saying it works great just plugged into whatever stationary or portable device. But reviews say a lot of things. Since it is probably not very demanding i figure it would work fine with something such as Topping DX3 Pro +

Total cost in this case would be about 600€. Both brands and models have favorable reputations and opinions and might not be hard to sell them after i get to be disappointed, as someone else has predicted in one of the earlier answers. Although i very much doubt i would buy anything else after that.

I am wondering about the HiFiMan stuff, it is like the middle ground between 400€ stuff and 2k€ stuff since not much is mentioned in between, but i am not happy about the many many complaints about build quality.

 

[etroze86]

You wrote a lot, i will have to go over certain parts more than once.

How would you compare Audio GD NFB-11.28 to combination of Topping d10s+a50s Together they cost about the same. Is it like with washer drier combo where the single unit uses more energy and resources than separate machines, not to mention how drying damages your clothes even more so than when in a separate unit, even if it costs about the same as both combined.

Or if you dislike or do not know topping an alternative would be the combination of Schiit Modi 3E+Magni 3 I haven't checked much reviews as far as Schiit goes.

If i am to buy Sennheiser it would probably be HD660s. Everything is suppose to be even and neutral. As i have no music preference that would probably suit me. Maybe. Guessing. And the next one in line is about 1300€ more expensive.

HD660s sensitivity and impedance suggest it doesn't need a lot of amplification. There are even reviews saying it works great just plugged into whatever stationary or portable device. But reviews say a lot of things. Since it is probably not very demanding i figure it would work fine with something such as Topping DX3 Pro +

Total cost in this case would be about 600€. Both brands and models have favorable reputations and opinions and might not be hard to sell them after i get to be disappointed, as someone else has predicted in one of the earlier answers. Although i very much doubt i would buy anything else after that.

I am wondering about the HiFiMan stuff, it is like the middle ground between 400€ stuff and 2k€ stuff since not much is mentioned in between, but i am not happy about the many many complaints about build quality.

So do you have any experience with audio gear, not just the headphone realm? If not, seriously look at a few "cheap" headphones rather than one that's considered neutral. You should really find a sound signature you like before spending a few hundred euro on gear. Senny 600 series really are kinda boring without tubes and honestly wouldn't suggest them as your first headphones. They are great once you hear them on tubes.
Pick up kph30i, 400se, 58x and SV02 and find out what you enjoy. These 4 will be about the same price as the 660s and easy to drive so you don't have to worry so much about amps.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

You wrote a lot, i will have to go over certain parts more than once.

How would you compare Audio GD NFB-11.28 to combination of Topping d10s+a50s Together they cost about the same.

I only tried the older NFB-11, NFB-12, NFB-16, etc, and the older, cheaper Toppings, so based on that I'd recommend the NFB-11 as I'd expect it to be on par with the older NFB-11 and NFB-12, while I don't have a point for reference on the higher tier toppings.

Is it like with washer drier combo where the single unit uses more energy and resources than separate machines, not to mention how drying damages your clothes even more so than when in a separate unit, even if it costs about the same as both combined.

They're not comparable in power consumption and damaging what they're used with.

The power consumption of a washer-dryer unit has a lot to do with how there's water everywhere in there where a dryer should work (not to mention some stand alone dryers use gas and the electricity is more for the spinner motor) plus you have to actually do more loads. It's a lot more like taking a Rav4 on multiple trips instead of renting a U-Haul - the small engine gets stressed by the load and then you do it repeatedly instead of one or two loads in one truck. A DAC-HPamp will use and output the same amount of power based on the topology of the circuit, meaning if you compare a Class A/B DAC-HPamp to a full Class A amplifier with a separate Class A discrete output stage DAC then the latter combo will suck more power for the output. That assumes they even have the same output...if the Class A/B amp has quadruple the output power then it won't matter if the other amp is Class A, if you're actually using all that quadruple power output you're still gonna draw more from the wall. Not having a separate power supply doesn't really impact performance either if it's properly done, ie, you don't use a power supply and its capacitors to its limits then add one more thing to it. In short: if it's a good DAC-HPamp it will have a huge transformer and huge power caps anyway.

They can't just damage headphones either just because they're a combo unit. Again, it's not something with a heck of a lot more compromises to the design when it comes to a motor that has to spin a chamber that would normally have water OR heating. Damaging the headphone (or speaker) depends more on things like whether there's a protection circuit like turn-on thumps, something that is common with speaker amps because you don't want to repeatedly bend and reach over to plug and unplug speakers. Some headphone amps don't have it because you can easily unplug before turning it off then plug in after you turned it on next time. You can damage headphones and speakers by clipping the signal, ie, just maxing it out or by having so little power for the sensitivity of the load and how loud you want it to go that it runs out of power trying to reproduce the signal to that loudness, and there are stand alone amps that make less power than good DAC-HPamps. It's kind of like comparing a small GT86 to a BMW M5. Sure the other one's a sedan but you have a V10, and if you go to a track with long enough straights, the GT86's agility won't count for much (it might win at Willow Springs, but it's not gonna beat a modern M5 or RS6 at the Nordschleiffe).

What they are more like are computers. Separates are like desktop computers with regular motherboards that have a slot for the graphics card. DAC-HPamps are more like laptops with the CPU and GPU despite being separate chips with separate RAM are on the same board. Power consumption isn't determined by the form factor, because you can have a miniPC with a 5800U CPU and a laptop with a 5800H CPU paired to an RX6800m GPU, or worse, you can have a desktop with some old i3 or Pentium.

Processing power isn't always just determined by the form factor either. Sure, a desktop PC with a 12900K and RTX3080 running off a 1000watt power supply and have giant heatsinks will run faster than even a desktop replacement 17in laptop with a 12900HX and RTX3080 mobile running off a 350w power brick cooled by, like, six heatpipes and four heatsinks at the vents on that "laptop." But at the same time you can also have a desktop with a Ryzen 5 1600 and RX 6400, or heck, go to a random office and you can find an IBM/Lenovo desktop that doesn't even have a discrete graphics chip.

Or if you dislike or do not know topping an alternative would be the combination of Schiit Modi 3E+Magni 3 I haven't checked much reviews as far as Schiit goes.

Schiit is good but as much as I like the Asgard, with the HD6x0/58x series that isn't the best choice due to how the sound gets even more congested than the HD600 is with other good amps. I didn't really like the Magni with it either. And in your case if you don't have a clear idea of waht you really want I'd start you off with the headphone that is about as average as it gets and with an amp that drives it well without being dedicated to high impedance headphones like OTL amps, that way you'll get a clearer idea where to go from there without the amp having been a constraint to that headphone's performance and if you do go elsewhere, you'll only need to change the headphone, not the amp. Unless you plan on using planars with very low sensitivity or electrostats that need more voltage.

If i am to buy Sennheiser it would probably be HD660s. Everything is suppose to be even and neutral. As i have no music preference that would probably suit me. Maybe. Guessing. And the next one in line is about 1300€ more expensive.

HD660s sensitivity and impedance suggest it doesn't need a lot of amplification. There are even reviews saying it works great just plugged into whatever stationary or portable device. But reviews say a lot of things. Since it is probably not very demanding i figure it would work fine with something such as Topping DX3 Pro +

Total cost in this case would be about 600€. Both brands and models have favorable reputations and opinions and might not be hard to sell them after i get to be disappointed, as someone else has predicted in one of the earlier answers. Although i very much doubt i would buy anything else after that.

I'm suggesting the Sennheisers on Massdrop since they'll cost a lot less. But them costing less doesn't mean you get cheaper amps, it means you get a bit more to spend on the amps or have a bit of change left if you would have bought the same amp either way. HD660S isn't too far off the HD650/6XX.

And if anything the HD660S isn't any less demanding than the HD650/6XX. It might even be the opposite in one particular case. Lower impedance, lower sensitivity (since the drivers are not absolutely new designs), so you need more power; it just doesn't seem that way because most people use solid state amps or hybrid amps and they'll make more power at 150ohms vs 300ohms. For those who use an OTL amp they'll get more power out of them when they're driving a 300ohm load. Plus the HD650 is weaker above 1000hz, so chances are people are just hearing that range louder on the HD660S.

If there's any reason to not get Massdrop Sennheiers, it's more because you're not sure if Sennheiser stocks the drivers and the panels in those colorways.

I am wondering about the HiFiMan stuff, it is like the middle ground between 400€ stuff and 2k€ stuff since not much is mentioned in between, but i am not happy about the many many complaints about build quality.

Even if there were no complaints about their quality control these are not my first idea for recommending to anyone that has never heard any such headphones before because it's harder to pinpoint where exactly you want to go if you happen to not like the sound, while to someone that has really no reference for what good sound is (not even speakers), chances are the relatively smoother uppermidrange of the Sennheisers can more likely be enough.

However if you were into speakers the Sennheisers would not be my first bet since you might be expecting soundstage like on speakers, at which point you might get into the K70x and decide it's not enough, so you try the HD800 and apparently it's not enough either, so now you've just taken two detours when you could have just been trying to find an AKG K1000.

 

[HBen]

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a thumbs up for that one

 

[tantadruj]

Pick up kph30i, 400se, 58x and SV02 and find out what you enjoy. These 4 will be about the same price as the 660s and easy to drive so you don't have to worry so much about amps.

I would rather spend once and get 1 good item. Having a mediocre living standard (economy, income) has taught me i simply can not afford to buy (too)cheap. I have been checking amps and it seems you do not need something expensive to power a headphone.

For example Schiit Magni Heresy [215mw at 600Ω and 410mW at 300Ω and 1.6W at 50Ω and 2.4W at 32Ω and 2.8W at 16Ω] and Topping DX3 Pro+ [2x 250mW at 300Ω and 2x 900mw at 64Ω and 2x 1.8W at 32Ω] . Both have been "measured" and are supposedly superb given the graphs/measurements.

I am not exactly sure what 2x means in case of Topping. Up to twice as much but not necessarily twice as much? Something else? I wish there was some unified standard on how to report these things.
Same goes for headphone sensitivity, once it is dB/V and at other times dB/mW and in a lot of times there is no unit at all, just a number. The audacity of these manufacturers. And none of them state what are power requirements for their products at different sound levels and what amplifiers are they certified to work with - or have i overlooked something?

Given online calculators, at 110dB loudness, something like HD660s needs 26.67mW@150Ω and something like HiFiMan Arya Stealth needs 39.9mW@32Ω so both, Topping and Schiit, should be more than sufficient.

 

[etroze86]

I would rather spend once and get 1 good item. Having a mediocre living standard (economy, income) has taught me i simply can not afford to buy (too)cheap. I have been checking amps and it seems you do not need something expensive to power a headphone.

For example Schiit Magni Heresy [215mw at 600Ω and 410mW at 300Ω and 1.6W at 50Ω and 2.4W at 32Ω and 2.8W at 16Ω] and Topping DX3 Pro+ [2x 250mW at 300Ω and 2x 900mw at 64Ω and 2x 1.8W at 32Ω] . Both have been "measured" and are supposedly superb given the graphs/measurements.

I am not exactly sure what 2x means in case of Topping. Up to twice as much but not necessarily twice as much? Something else? I wish there was some unified standard on how to report these things.
Same goes for headphone sensitivity, once it is dB/V and at other times dB/mW and in a lot of times there is no unit at all, just a number. The audacity of these manufacturers. And none of them state what are power requirements for their products at different sound levels and what amplifiers are they certified to work with - or have i overlooked something?

Given online calculators, at 110dB loudness, something like HD660s needs 26.67mW and something like HiFiMan Arya Stealth needs 39.9mW so both, Topping and Schiit, should be more than sufficient.

The reason I say buy the "cheap"(none of these are actually cheap sounding) headphones first is you will keep up with the 660 in terms of sound quality(IMHO 95% of the 660) as well have different sound signatures. It's good to have a flavor of the day headphone and it will keep you in your buy once budget.
The heresy is a very good amp to start with and will last you a long time before "needing" an upgrade. The topping you are looking at I really don't have experience with so can't give you to much of an opinion. The power ratings on it though in terms of the 2x usually signifies balanced power. So single end would probably be less power. Also graphs and measurements are a good start but your ears will tell you the whole truth about a amplifier.
Power ratings on headphones are mW or mV, it sucks it isn't standard but it is what it is. Your math adds up but I promise 26mW into a 660 will not sound good. they will sound flat and very thin. Headphones need power over head(just like HT speaker's) to sound their best and handle the dynamics of music/content you are listening to.
You don't have to take my advice or anyone else's on the forum but we have been where you are right now. My advice will let you grow into the hobby rather than having regret a single big purchase because it wasn't what you were expecting. It also allows you to focus on a sound signature you like if you ever decide to upgrade.

 

[tantadruj]

2x usually signifies balanced power. So single end would be less power.

Mmh. But DX3 Pro + has no balanced output capability, no 4.4mm

 

[etroze86]

Mmh. But DX3 Pro + has no balanced output capability, no 4.4mm

It looks like it's balanced internally. So I would venture to say those are max power numbers x2.

• Output power
  • 1800mW x2 @32Ω THD+N <0.1%

Yeah that's max power with audible distortion. I'd go with the heresy and a modi over the topping, but that's my preference. Or the JDS Labs atom stack as they sound neutral without being harsh or clinical.