[nicolo]

I agree with a lot of your points in your thesis. But i disagree with the statement(s) that outsourcing leads to loss in quality. In some cases yes, in some cases no. For example, the KEF LS50's were designed in Britain, but made in China because of the the quality and cost advantage. Toyota India is a significant producer of transmission systems (the most complex parts of a car) for a lot of Toyota car models which are mostly exported to other parts of Asia and other geographies, because quality of Indian made transmissions are on par or better than Toyota's own factories in Japan. This is true for both mass manufactured car models as well as production for more premium models. Saint Gobain sources a lot of it's glass from India, because the quality here is much better. The examples you have provided for Swiss or Denmark products apply to luxury or higher than average priced products only.
 
In fact, your thesis misses a huge demographic and attitudinal change underway before the outsourcing boom began. A lot of recent research has shown that in the late 80s, most students had were more attracted to the idea of becoming a doctor/lawyer/consultant/investment banker rather than getting into "boring" hard science. Sure you still had people getting into science, but increasingly everyone wanted to get into "white collar" jobs and engineering degrees were more and more looked down on. This led to shortages across engineering disciplines leading to companies looking at countries where engineering talent would be available. When people started realizing that they could save more money by moving production overseas, they started doing so. But even then there wasn't a big hue and cry even when millions of manufacturing jobs were lost, as most people still looked down on it. It was when the outsourcing of service industry jobs (mostly in IT) began, that people kicked up a fuss. Simply put, America lost both manufacturing (blue-collar) and service jobs (white-collar), all within a generation. Leaving everyone stuck in no-man's land. This has started a vicious cycle with more and more people graduating with arts/law/commerce degrees than in hard science. Those with engineering degrees can't get jobs as there are very few manufacturing jobs to be had. The only such jobs available are in high-end fields (limited by their very nature) or boutique companies like Schiit. Most of the manufacturing coming back is also so heavily automated, that only few people are needed for production while earlier it was hundreds.
 
The only way to get "sticky" jobs is to have a national, government-led program to get back lost manufacturing jobs, with little to no automation allowed at all. The program also needs to start at the school level to attract talent to manufacturing. If companies are unwilling to shift back production, punish them by disallowing them access to American consumers.
 
I understand that the above statement sounds socialist/communist. But ask yourself this: do you think the India/Chinese publics would allow their governments to let companies outsource jobs to other countries. Hell NO!!
 
I believe every government has a responsibility to ensure the safety, freedom and PROSPERITY of their citizens. What else are they elected for anyway?

 

[nicolo]

Another thing that most people miss is "institutional memory". You need a critical mass of experienced people to ensure that the next generation will have enough support and people to look up to. The personal touch is absolutely essential here. Institutional memory is the reason why product quality from countries like China have constantly improved as new generations learn from the elder ones. The thing is once you lose manufacturing jobs over a period of time due to outsourcing and other reasons, there are not enough people with experience resulting in a hollowing out. There will be a few well paid people with the requisite experience while the vast majority will be stuck with low skilled labor, leading to low incomes and the associated lifestyles.

 

[baronkatz]

  I agree with a lot of your points in your thesis. But i disagree with the statement(s) that outsourcing leads to loss in quality. In some cases yes, in some cases no. For example, the KEF LS50's were designed in Britain, but made in China because of the the quality and cost advantage. Toyota India is a significant producer of transmission systems (the most complex parts of a car) for a lot of Toyota car models which are mostly exported to other parts of Asia and other geographies, because quality of Indian made transmissions are on par or better than Toyota's own factories in Japan. This is true for both mass manufactured car models as well as production for more premium models. Saint Gobain sources a lot of it's glass from India, because the quality here is much better. The examples you have provided for Swiss or Denmark products apply to luxury or higher than average priced products only.
 
In fact, your thesis misses a huge demographic and attitudinal change underway before the outsourcing boom began. A lot of recent research has shown that in the late 80s, most students had were more attracted to the idea of becoming a doctor/lawyer/consultant/investment banker rather than getting into "boring" hard science. Sure you still had people getting into science, but increasingly everyone wanted to get into "white collar" jobs and engineering degrees were more and more looked down on. This led to shortages across engineering disciplines leading to companies looking at countries where engineering talent would be available. When people started realizing that they could save more money by moving production overseas, they started doing so. But even then there wasn't a big hue and cry even when millions of manufacturing jobs were lost, as most people still looked down on it. It was when the outsourcing of service industry jobs (mostly in IT) began, that people kicked up a fuss. Simply put, America lost both manufacturing (blue-collar) and service jobs (white-collar), all within a generation. Leaving everyone stuck in no-man's land. This has started a vicious cycle with more and more people graduating with arts/law/commerce degrees than in hard science. Those with engineering degrees can't get jobs as there are very few manufacturing jobs to be had. The only such jobs available are in high-end fields (limited by their very nature) or boutique companies like Schiit. Most of the manufacturing coming back is also so heavily automated, that only few people are needed for production while earlier it was hundreds.
 
The only way to get "sticky" jobs is to have a national, government-led program to get back lost manufacturing jobs, with little to no automation allowed at all. The program also needs to start at the school level to attract talent to manufacturing. If companies are unwilling to shift back production, punish them by disallowing them access to American consumers.
 
I understand that the above statement sounds socialist/communist. But ask yourself this: do you think the India/Chinese publics would allow their governments to let companies outsource jobs to other countries. Hell NO!!
 
I believe every government has a responsibility to ensure the safety, freedom and PROSPERITY of their citizens. What else are they elected for anyway?

Maybe we see quality differently because I don't think the KEF have that amazing a build quality at all. Neither do the Hifiman HE's that you have listed in your avatar. They have consistently had problems in their manufacturing actually. Recently, someone on this forum found flaws in that the cable inside the cup was blocking some of the sound as it wasn't put together that well. Also they look and feel quite cheap, especially for the price...
 
Yes the examples I used of Denmark and Sweden are high price - but also the highest quality possible. Something I haven't really seen out of China or any developing country yet. Sure, Toyota might make some transmissions for their LESSER models in India, but they WILL NOT make the transmission for the LFA or higher end Lexus' in India. Why? IF the quality is SO good? If it's THE SAME? As I mentioned in my thesis - Sony makes their highest end models in Japan, MOST PROFESSIONAL goods are made in the developed, not developing world. Why? I mean they could make the STAX 009 in China, but who would buy it if it was as cheaply made as Hifiman? Even if it cost half as much?
 
What does hard science have to do with blue collar manufacturing? Do you think that most of the people actually working at a factory have PHD's in physics or something? And actually, due to foreign competition, the price of labour in the US has gone down. Look at GM's outsourcing - car manufacturing employees get paid a lot less than they did 20-30 years ago in the US (calculated for inflation of course). So your generalization about people suddenly abandoning the sciences and going into white collar jobs is rather flawed. Especially since there are millions and millions of Americans still working bluecollar - whether it's packing and distribution at Amazon, or construction work, etc... These people are trained at the job most of the time, IE, they don't necessarily have a degree...
 
Of course India and China wouldn't allow outsourcing themselves, in fact they have extreme protectionism. Look at how China poured millions into the solar panel industry to undercut the US made ones, this subsidy along with the cheap labour, led to companies like Solyndra to go out of business. Obama of course put a huge import duty on solar panels from China to curb this... But anyway, there's no such thing as free trade, every country has to protect their interests and manufacturing, as they all do. Even within trade unions, the actual union itself is very protectionist (look at the EU as an example, or NAFTA). 
 
So I completely agree with you there, but my point is that it pisses me off that the outsourcing price didn't go down to the consumer level. One can buy a Schiit amp or dac for $99 that's as good or better than a similarly priced or even higher priced Chinese made one. One can buy American Apparel for $10-$15 a T-shirt rather than one at some mall that's made in Bangladesh for $0.10 and sold for $20... It's just ridiculous and I feel ripped off when buying outsourced goods, the value of a product for me = Manufacturing cost (including parts and labour) + markup. If the manufacturing cost is $0.10 and I'm sold it for $20, that's an insane markup (I know retail has to make some money too but that's ridiculous), vs. it costing $2 to make and sold for $20. The $2 shirt is a better value for me because I am buying closer to the manufacturing cost...

  Another thing that most people miss is "institutional memory". You need a critical mass of experienced people to ensure that the next generation will have enough support and people to look up to. The personal touch is absolutely essential here. Institutional memory is the reason why product quality from countries like China have constantly improved as new generations learn from the elder ones. The thing is once you lose manufacturing jobs over a period of time due to outsourcing and other reasons, there are not enough people with experience resulting in a hollowing out. There will be a few well paid people with the requisite experience while the vast majority will be stuck with low skilled labor, leading to low incomes and the associated lifestyles.

I agree to an extent, but you forget some other important points - for example innovation. If the US, Japan and other countries pull out of China tomorrow, what will happen to its economy? It's not sustainable. Sure China's quality is better today than it was 20 years ago, but it's still far from the level I'm talking about. You don't see anything made like Meridian or Nagra for example in terms of build quality. Look at how horrible the cars are for example. And talk about being internationally competitive - Huawei and Lenovo (which basically took most of its technology from IBM anyway) alone won't do much. Japan and Korea have become international players not because of outsourcing, but because of the fact that they had huge protectionism when it came to importing goods, they made their own companies (many of which existed before WWII), and their own innovation internationally competitive. In fact, Japan, after being completely devastated after WWII, managed to get back on its feet (thanks partly to foreign aid) mostly due to its own innovation. Look at the Shinkansen (bullet train), and so many innovations released. China is the 2nd biggest economy in the world, yet as I pointed out, they have are 92nd on the Human Development Index and way down the list on the Gini Coefficent. Kind of sad, especially considering how Japan had a fledgling, mostly middle class society, even in the 1960s (actually even during the Edo period).
 
I won't buy any products from China until A. It's on the level of quality that I expect. And most importantly B. Workers are paid fair wages. Here in America - a factory manager or owner could make 6 figures, and their workers can get $50,000 per year (around the same in Japan, although even less separation between rich and poor). Now in China, a factory manager/owner can make 7 figures, and their workers will get paid less than $2 an hour, working 6 days a week, living in a dorm with half a dozen or more people. Sure, many of these people don't have much of a choice, but justifying this is the same excuse that many use to justify slavery (oh they were starving in Africa anyways and so are better off as slaves in the US). It doesn't make it right, at all. I've met the children of many of these factory owners in London. It's just disgusting how people can treat their workers live slaves, pay them measly wages, and live like millionaires and I won't support it.

 

[tonykaz]

Here - Here ,
 
Well said Sir , I stand with you .  
  It may be a loosing battle .  
  The top 10% own 70% of the Country's Wealth , the rest of us are their servants and servants of their children .
   They even have their own political party ( elephants ) serving them at our expense .
   ****** -em ,
   buy from the little local guy ,  
   educate your children ,
   keep your skills sharp , 
   don't give up ,
 
   Tony in Michigan 

 

[asuperpower]

wow a tube ragnarok!

 

[rmoody]

 
Here - Here ,
 
Well said Sir , I stand with you .  
  It may be a loosing battle .  
  The top 10% own 70% of the Country's Wealth , the rest of us are their servants and servants of their children .
   They even have their own political party ( elephants ) serving them at our expense .
   ****** -em ,
   buy from the little local guy ,  
   educate your children ,
   keep your skills sharp , 
   don't give up ,
 
   Tony in Michigan 

Just wow.
I really thought I had found a place to talk about audio and not have politics brought into the discussion. Sigh.