The best computer sound card is the equal of the best stand-alone CDP?

[markl]

Now that we have separate forums....

EDIT: Shoot this was going to be a poll... Oh well...

Anyway, do you believe the best computer sound card, regardless of the computer it is stuck in, can stand up to the best stand-alone CDP?

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl Anyway, do you believe the best computer sound card, regardless of the computer it is stuck in, can stand up to the best stand-alone CDP?

It's a matter of belief for me, because I've heard neither the best sound card nor the best standalone CDP (have you, Mark? What constitutes "best" to you?).

But my answer is -- no, not yet. Will it eventually? IMO it's a virtual certainty. As far as sound cards being "stuck in" computers, what do you suppose is keeping sound cards stuck inside computers? Nothing that I'm aware of... there are already 'sound cards' that don't go inside the computer at all.

What delineates a "sound card" from a standalone device, anyway? It's a board containing a DAC and other related circuitry, which connects to a computer. Standalone CDP's have computers inside them... they are computers. The lines are blurring between "sound cards" and standalone CDP's.

 

[lan]

Internal computer sound card = no because you can't use power conditioning. You'll need to use one of the external ones or DAC.

 

[markl]

Quote:

It's a matter of belief for me, because I've heard neither the best sound card nor the best standalone CDP (have you, Mark? What constitutes "best" to you?).

Good question, Fewtch!! No I haven't heard either the greatest stand-alone player or the greatest sound card. This was meant to be a gauge of our prejudices/beliefs on this site....

 

[go_vtec]

I have to agree with lan. Without stable and descent power supply, it is extreremly difficult (or should I dare say impossible) to design an internal soundcard/DAC which can overcome such challenge. Although I have auditioned various internal external soundcard, I have yet heard anything that can beat a good CDP. However I can think of one major advantage of such soundcard based design.... no jitter and no error while reading from the recorded media (=hard drive).

 

[cjr888]

I'm a quiet lurker at Head-Fi, primarily because I am <gasp> a speaker guy. Either way, I read both the sources forums daily and am in the process of putting together a high-end PC-as-source.

I'm intrigued primarily because a lot of the opinions I read here are the complete opposite of other people I know online in the audio world, and opposing opinions are an extreme positive in the audio world.

The primary item I'm always intrigued with here are the number of people who feel that PC-as-source just plain can't best top-end CDP and DAC combinations. Its still hard to compare all opinions as some statements are rather blanket without mention of which soundcards and CDPs they've compared or had exposure to.

When I speak to being surprised at this opinion, I'm speaking primarily to people who are using the Lynx L22 and LynxTwo cards and at first listen have put rediculously expensive source components off to the side. Some of these systems are based on commercial PC offerings using the Lynx, some are just folks putting together a PC.

The tough part for me is that among all the expressed opinions, I'm not sure how many actual Lynx owners there are here, but based on its raves, I'd love to see it become a point of comparison. But I know plenty of folks putting rediculously expensive components to the side -- whether you're talking Audio Note Level 3 and 4 DACs, or heavily modified one unit setups combined with extremely high end systems. Combine out of the box performance with the fact that you can tweak just about anything in software, and if you have the technical items up to snuff already, and do the software right, you can have things be anything you want as output.

I think a lot of people have many PC stigmas regarding the noisy environment and thus "it has to be worse". Theory is terrific, but in this world, opinions and real world comparisons mean everything.

On top of that, each person has their flavor of choice in the same way that each component has its own voice.

Outside of my ramblings and in relation to the original question, I will throw out a definite "yes" -- I think a HD/sound card source can certainly pounce on a dedicated disc spinner, but again flavor is everything.

I actually own Iron Dreamer's original modified RME as well as a half dozen DACs and I don't know how many CDPs at this point -- sometime soon, once I sell off some additional gear, I'll be buying a Lynx L22 or LynxTwo, and if I work schedule sucks as horribly as it currently does and there will be no time for music listening, I'd love to send it off to Iron Dreamer and let him do some A/B's with the modified 1212m so we can get some real benchmarks to work with. The Lynx is listed as the benchmark for everything, yet there is so little discussion of it in any of the card comparisons out there. Value is great, but everyone needs something to compare things to....

 

[Calanctus]

cjr888--or anybody--have you actually heard a Lynx soundcard in a good setup? I'm very curious, mainly due to the huge price difference between even a top quality soundcard and some of the ridiculously expensive CD rigs out there (Audio Aero Capitole, Theta Gen VIII DAC, etc.)

 

[Wodgy]

I'd have to say no, not yet. Sound cards have been getting much better recently, but there are so many variables, some obvious (dirty grounds, need for a standalone power supply) and some obscure (for some reason even the mighty E-MU cannot output a correct, bit-perfect signal to its digital outs from any Windows application -- how is any average person supposed to know that unless they read the forums religiously? is it a driver issue? an operating system issue? why doesn't it show up in RightMark audio analyzer? no one yet knows). With a standalone CDP the designers control the entire picture and it's them, not the customers, who are responsible for getting everything right.

One day, though.... The recent E-MU card seems to be a darn good step forward.

 

[jefemeister]

We do a lot of product testing using the digital i/o capability of the Lynx One. I'll have to check out its audio performance sometime. And no, I don't think any soundcard even comes close to the best sources out there today. The advantages are convenience, and that you can essentially eliminate transport issues.

 

[Hajime]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jefemeister The advantages are convenience, and that you can essentially eliminate transport issues.

Jeff,

I find that statement fairly interesting. Do you think the Lynx soundcard would serve as an almost perfect transport to an outboard DAC? How would it compare to a "regular" transport?

 

[darkclouds]

I'll have to say no because it's more than just the DAC involved. Also, it seems building a great cd player is more than just the sum of it's parts.

 

[halcyon]

Lynx sound card is (imho) not a transport, a cd-rom drive is. Lynx sound card is an interface.

Back to the topic...

On my experience, the best I've heard (some Aardvark / RME / Midiman gear vs Mark Levinson / Audio Aero) I'd say definitely "NO" when asked if sound cards rival cd players (sonically).

Most good sound cards I've heard border on over-analytical, clinical and artificially clean sound. IMHO, partly devoid of life, intimacy, presence and naturalness. Some amps do this as well, but I think many sound cards do it clearly. People who love every single bit of detail, usually love sound card outputs, imho.

But for relaxed, still accurate and natural presentation, I do prefer the best of cd players I've heard, just on pure sonic grounds.

If I factor in ease of use, transport noise (very important!) and compatibility, I don't think there is much contest.

Then again, once I start to look at the price tag of Audio Aero Capitole Mk II/ML/Wadia, I become quite content with my current computer sound card setup.

Also, in my opinion headphone only listeners miss a lot in soundstaging compared to loudspeaker listeners. Some sonic effects of digital sources are most apparent in in-room loudspeaker listening (at least to me).

That's just my two cents worth.

regards,
Halcyon

PS Personally I'd listen to loudspeakers 90%, if I had a good loudspeaker setup in my computer room. But I don't, so I listent to my headphones setup and am slowly trying to improve it further.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by halcyon Most good sound cards I've heard border on over-analytical, clinical and artificially clean sound. IMHO, partly devoid of life, intimacy, presence and naturalness.

Surprise... that's what the recordings really sound like

. My guess is if you heard the master "tapes" on the same gear used to master it, you wouldn't hear any of the "audiophile qualities" often found with high-end CDP's.

Oh yeah, I'm aware that the goal of many is to recreate the sound of the music as it was live (or perhaps as it should have sounded like), rather than as it is in the recording. A noble, if impossible goal.

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch Surprise... that's what the recordings really sound like . My guess is if you heard the master "tapes" on the same gear used to master it, you wouldn't hear any of the "audiophile qualities" often found with high-end CDP's.

I don't really buy this. The over-analytical feeling seems to be from cheap op-amps, poor power supply regulation, cheap caps in the signal path, etc. Iron_Dreamer's many successes improving the sound with simple mods are a good testament to this.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy I don't really buy this. The over-analytical feeling seems to be from cheap op-amps, poor power supply regulation, cheap caps in the signal path, etc. Iron_Dreamer's many successes improving the sound with simple mods are a good testament to this.

Perhaps. My card is not one of the best, but some of my music sounds lush/warm and some sounds sterile and over-analytical. People talk of the vital importance of the source, but I tend to place the most importance on the recording itself... which is the "true source." Unfortunately, most recordings are crap and no source is going to improve on it (other than subjectively).