Sound Stage, Out of the Head

[Skycyclepilot]

Is is just me, or is the concept of headphones producing a sound stage that creates a realistic and convincing illusion of speakers or live performers out if front of the listener just a dream? I hear a huge difference between closed headphones and my Aryas, but the sound is still between my ears, and off to the left and right - nothing really sounds like it is in front of me. I experience the same thing with those YouTube binaural demonstrations - sound left, right, and even behind - but nothing convincingly in front of me.

 

[serman005]

Just listened to Verdi's Requiem which is a spatially complex piece. Listened on several different headphones and found that, at times of maximal complexity, there is some information that appears to creep somewhat forward on this piece. But it is rare and quite modest, not a true stage at all--at least for me. I would call it more of a hint. I have not heard all the Summit-fi gear, so bear that in mind. Some of those headphones/amps/DACs may be able to better render a forward stage. If that is your interest, though, clearly a 2-channel speaker setup is the way to go I would think.

 

[Skycyclepilot]

Just listened to Verdi's Requiem which is a spatially complex piece. Listened on several different headphones and found that, at times of maximal complexity, there is some information that appears to creep somewhat forward on this piece. But it is rare and quite modest, not a true stage at all--at least for me. I would call it more of a hint. I have not heard all the Summit-fi gear, so bear that in mind. Some of those headphones/amps/DACs may be able to better render a forward stage. If that is your interest, though, clearly a 2-channel speaker setup is the way to go I would think.

I would love that, but don't have the money or room for a nice two speaker setup. I was just wondering if my experience with sound stage was unique.

 

[serman005]

I would love that, but don't have the money or room for a nice two speaker setup. I was just wondering if my experience with sound stage was unique.

In my opinion, you are right on the money.

 

[TYATYA]

Headphone typically will not have a sound stage like speaker can do.
Reason is headphones give to each ear ONLY ONE channel while with a pair of speaker, that is TWO.
Two channels feed to one ear will reproduce a full imagine. Two these similar imagines (from left ear and right ear) then be combined in our brain.
It is near to our live hearing from enviroinment.
With a pair of spks, mid point of a line connecting 2 spk is where "sound stage" most close to that of an headphone. Reason is, when siting at this place each of our ear fed by only 1 speaker (opposite spk is mostly didnt sounds).
Sound stage become 2d if listener sit between 2 spk.

 

[kid vic]

Headphones can't even properly match the tone and signature neutrality of speakers let alone the precise forward placement; your best bet if your trying to get that affect would probably be the AKG K1000, Myspeaker myspheres and the RAAL ribbons.
Planars can put your head in the center of a perfect open two channel-esque experience (maybe HD800 as well) but that sound coming at you from infront is (almost) physically impossible due to form factor with headphones.

 

[Nik74]

Give the HD800 a listen. The soundspace they create even if not quite in front of you , spills so far out towards all dimentions and is so mesmerizing that it might make you forget about Speakers until you have space for them

 

[GREQ]

I've only heard 'out of head' audio with headphones twice.

Once with Sony VIP-1000 - a vintage headphone system with DSP that makes it sound like you're listening to stereo speakers in front of you.
It works, and it's quite amazing.
I havn't heard the newer Sony systems with 7.1 or 9.1 DSP, and even though they might be similar, I believe they're designed for use with home theatre systems so that might not be an option.

The other way to get the sound out of your head is with crossover.
I havn't heard the high-end crossover amps like the Phonitor, but I do own a Reveel which fundamentally does the same thing with less flexibility, although it's primarily marketed as a 'circuit stage that improves the audio signal + headphone amp'.
And that also works to significant degree.

Headphones with big soundstage like HD800 or HA-DX1000 don't come close to DSP for getting the sound out of the space between your ears.

 

[Malfunkt]

Getting sound "in-front of you" is very easy to achieve.

Sound processed with DSP such as found through Dolby processing on https://nplayer.com/ (for iOs and Android) can be setup to simulate speakers directly in front of. The effect has a number of settings, the 'traditional setting =' being best especially when used with 5.1 content. Smyth Realizer can do similar at great cost.

Dolby Atmos for Headphones for Windows does a great job with multi-channel content. I use it for Netflix all the time on headphones and its like having a surround system. Cost $15. Free trial too.

A diffuse-field tuned headphone such as an Etymotic ER4 playing binaural recordings will allow for fully spatial sounds.

Of course, listening to regular 2-channel music on ordinary headphones will not have the proper 'in-front' stereo crossfeed that occurs naturally with speakers and room environment that most music is mastered for. Even still the perception of sound 'in-front' of you will be dependent on a range of things. YMMV.

After using headphones for a while, you get used to the incorrect 'soundstage'. The stereo image actually becomes exaggerated or 'hard-panned' with instruments and imaging far to the left and right without proper center. As mentioned crossfeed and digital signal processing helps with this.

Still, personally, the majority of my music listening occurs without any processing.

 

[Skycyclepilot]

Getting sound "in-front of you" is very easy to achieve.

Sound processed with DSP such as found through Dolby processing on https://nplayer.com/ (for iOs and Android) can be setup to simulate speakers directly in front of. The effect has a number of settings, the 'traditional setting =' being best especially when used with 5.1 content. Smyth Realizer can do similar at great cost.

Dolby Atmos for Headphones for Windows does a great job with multi-channel content. I use it for Netflix all the time on headphones and its like having a surround system. Cost $15. Free trial too.

A diffuse-field tuned headphone such as an Etymotic ER4 playing binaural recordings will allow for fully spatial sounds.

Of course, listening to regular 2-channel music on ordinary headphones will not have the proper 'in-front' stereo crossfeed that occurs naturally with speakers and room environment that most music is mastered for. Even still the perception of sound 'in-front' of you will be dependent on a range of things. YMMV.

After using headphones for a while, you get used to the incorrect 'soundstage'. The stereo image actually becomes exaggerated or 'hard-panned' with instruments and imaging far to the left and right without proper center. As mentioned crossfeed and digital signal processing helps with this.

Still, personally, the majority of my music listening occurs without any processing.

I was referring to two channel stereo content, as opposed to 5.1 or 7.1 content. Some reviewers talk about certain headphones having a deep and wide sound stage, which led me to believe they were hearing sound in front of them. I guess that isn't the case. I do have a crossfeed VST that I can use, but it just narrows the image - nothing more.

 

[Malfunkt]

I was referring to two channel stereo content, as opposed to 5.1 or 7.1 content. Some reviewers talk about certain headphones having a deep and wide sound stage, which led me to believe they were hearing sound in front of them. I guess that isn't the case. I do have a crossfeed VST that I can use, but it just narrows the image - nothing more.

Some of the earlier crossfeed VST aren't that good. You may want to try another type of DSP plugin. The app I mentioned earlier - nPlayer - I made an error, it has DTS instead of Dolby.

Also many of the new DSP algorithms will also create a speaker 'forward' presentation for 2-channel stereo.

Also, there are some hardware options such as Sennheiser's GSX1000 and the aforementioned Smyth Realizer.

Is is just me, or is the concept of headphones producing a sound stage that creates a realistic and convincing illusion of speakers or live performers out if front of the listener just a dream? I hear a huge difference between closed headphones and my Aryas, but the sound is still between my ears, and off to the left and right - nothing really sounds like it is in front of me. I experience the same thing with those YouTube binaural demonstrations - sound left, right, and even behind - but nothing convincingly in front of me.

Oh, I also got to try a Audeze Mobius at meet recently. Really wish I spent more time with it. Sound quality was above consumer average with planar qualities. The DSP did work, and actually surprisingly well as you turned your head. So truly, it is no longer a dream. I don't quite think handling the processing in the headphone makes the most sense, so I'm not completely set on the Mobius - but definitely worth looking into.

I think many headphones can have a deep and wide soundstage... just not a realistic one. Case in point HD800. Soundstage is vast due to tuning and enclosure design, it is wide, but it isn't accurate for stereo music. It is 'deep' in the sense that it transparent / clear.

Also this is new:

 

[SonyFan121]

Is is just me, or is the concept of headphones producing a sound stage that creates a realistic and convincing illusion of speakers or live performers out if front of the listener just a dream? I hear a huge difference between closed headphones and my Aryas, but the sound is still between my ears, and off to the left and right - nothing really sounds like it is in front of me. I experience the same thing with those YouTube binaural demonstrations - sound left, right, and even behind - but nothing convincingly in front of me.

No, it's not just a dream. I was able to experience this with Sennheiser HD700's connected to my 25 year old Linn power amp and Cyrus CD6.

My journey in this hobby has taught me that it is true that in order to experience the best, you need to spend lot's of money.
I sold most of my equipment after I realised this and am now happy with just a Sony all-in-one system and Marantz HD-CD1 player, with various headphones.

 

[Skycyclepilot]

No, it's not just a dream. I was able to experience this with Sennheiser HD700's connected to my 25 year old Linn power amp and Cyrus CD6.

My journey in this hobby has taught me that it is true that in order to experience the best, you need to spend lot's of money.
I sold most of my equipment after I realised this and am now happy with just a Sony all-in-one system and Marantz HD-CD1 player.

Well, I have a $380 JDS Element headphone DAC/amp, and a $1,600 pair of HiFiMan Arya headphones. To me, that's 'lots of money'!

 

[SonyFan121]

I actually still have the Linn amp but I rarely use it because of it's age. I got it second hand 6 years ago for $650 but back in 1993 it was worth $4,000.

 

[buke9]

Yes headphones will not give you the sound way out in front of you as speakers do without some dsp involved. Some do give some sense of it but speakers are out in front of you so they will always be better at it. The HD-800’s are probably the best at giving a lot of space to the music for headphones the Abyss is another that is also very good .
@Skycyclepilot if your interested I will be having a meet in Louisville on March 2nd haven’t made a thread here yet for it as I’m still lining up some vendors and a venue but just by PM,s have over 20 right now so is trending to be a decent turnout already and you would be more than welcome to attend.