Sound quality - 192KBPS and less
Jun 21, 2008 at 5:18 PM Post #61 of 71
Quote:

Originally Posted by regal /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There was a thread like this one on Head-fi where someone eventualy posted flac and 320 kbs clips.


Why would anyone need to post a flac and 320 clip? Anyone with a computer can make files like that from CDs themselves. I think you've got this story a little confused. Perhaps you're thinking of the high bitrate vs redbook samples that someone pointed to. It was determined that the redbook wasn't an accurate dither down from the high bitrate sample, so it was meaningless. When the file was properly reduced to 16/44.1 it was indistinguishable from the high bitrate sample.

See ya
Steve
 
Jun 21, 2008 at 5:29 PM Post #62 of 71
Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Why would anyone need to post a flac and 320 clip? See ya
Steve



Because most people have crappy mastered audio where you can't hear harmonics or tone. Wolfmother sounds the same at 160 kbs as it does lossless, Steve Hoffman doesn't. That was the point, well mastered/recorded flac was easily distinguished from 320 kbs using ABX Foobar.

Its amazing how quickly people forget things, I guess the server outage blew up everyones bookmarks.
 
Jun 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM Post #63 of 71
Quote:

Originally Posted by regal /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Because most people have crappy mastered audio where you can't hear harmonics or tone. Wolfmother sounds the same at 160 kbs as it does lossless, Steve Hoffman doesn't. That was the point, well mastered/recorded flac was easily distinguished from 320 kbs using ABX Foobar.

Its amazing how quickly people forget things, I guess the server outage blew up everyones bookmarks.



Please post a link to the thread so that doubts about your sanity and/or naivety can be restored.
 
Jun 21, 2008 at 6:41 PM Post #64 of 71
Quote:

Originally Posted by regal /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Because most people have crappy mastered audio where you can't hear harmonics or tone. Wolfmother sounds the same at 160 kbs as it does lossless, Steve Hoffman doesn't.


I don't know what either "Wolfmother" or "Steve Hoffman" sound like because I haven't heard either of them, but it isn't hard to find well mastered CDs. Just go grab a typical modern string quartet or orchestral recording. Those are going to be MUCH better at revealing compression artifacts than electronic music.

I've done the comparison tests myself on a variety of recordings. I've found that AAC 256 is indistinguishable from lossless on any kind of music. (For 99% of the music I listen to, AAC 192 VBR is perfect.) Lossless is great for archiving a bit perfect master. But for listening, well encoded lossy is just as good as lossless.

See ya
Steve
 
Jun 22, 2008 at 12:22 AM Post #65 of 71
I no longer use FLAC or MP3. I did my own tests a few(5-6) years back, and ended up settling for Ogg/Vorbis.

1. I ripped an album - can't remember what it was. For arguments sake, we'll say "The Road To Hell - Chris Rea". It's a great album, it may be old but it's very nicely mastered, and I'm quite familiar with it after all these years. We'll say the track was "Daytona" - the start of it, there is a triangle struck after a couple of seconds. It was something as small as that which made me elect not to use MP3.

2. I take the ripped audio tracks, and encode them as MP3s with the various "preset" settings for lame. I set the filenames of the tracks to be the bitrates used.

3. I decode all the audio, back to wav. I then burn them, in a random order, onto a CD.

4. Take the CD to my fathers, where I'm able to compare on some relatively high-resolution equipment - certainly higher than my PC audio of the time. He had a Naim CD5, Linn amplification, Spendor BBC studio monitors.

5. I listen through the tracks many, many times. I write down which track numbers have audible problems, and the tracks that appear to have no artifacts or issues.

My results were that I could accurately find the CD-quality track 100% of the time, even when compared to a 320kbps MP3. There was one particular part of one song that gave it away each and every time. The other tracks, the MP3 was totally transparent to me and my ears.

Running the same test, I found that Ogg/Vorbis was totally transparent with the same music at a setting of q6, which equated to ~192kbps(variable). I could find no difference whatsoever - absolutely nothing.

From that day on, everything has been encoded as q6. Something particularly detailed - female vocals, or complex and detailed albums - I do them at q7, for no reason other than it moves the threshold further from the point I could hear, and should give me a little extra 'headroom' when it comes to avoiding distortions or unwanted artifacts.

Now, this (IMO) was a harsh test, using gear I wouldn't normally be listening to. I feel it was a great way to find a good compromise between outright performance and the performance I could perceive - even today, with a dedicated DAC and better speakers(my own studio monitors
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), I can't find the difference at the bitrates I selected.

I was ~22 years old at the time, so I had good young ears. I don't abuse them. I was using top-notch gear at the time, and my results were repeatable. IMO, the "lossy" aspects of MP3 aren't a patch on "Vorbis". MP3 at ANY bitrate adds a certain colouration, or audible alters the sound, on at least one part of one track of a popular CD.

FLAC is totally inaudible. Anyone trying to argue otherwise doesn't understand that "1" is different from "0", and there is no other variable involved.

Ogg/Vorbis will give better outright sound quality than MP3, on an expensive Naim CD player, at a much lower bitrate.

It was a no-brainer for me back then, when I only had a 40gb hard drive. These days, I have 2x 160gb drives, with music and films. Have I moved up to lossless? No. What's the point? It's dead space for my ears at the age of 22, and my hearing is only going in one direction from that point. You may end up preserving as much detail as possible, but the chances are you'll never benefit from it. You'll only find it a problem when you upgrade your hard drives 4 times as often as me.
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Quote:

610 directories, 8533 files
51.7GB


I'm using ~60-100mb per album, rather than ~300-500mb for FLAC.

Cor... what a long post that ended up being!
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~Phewl.
 
Jun 22, 2008 at 7:45 AM Post #66 of 71
AudioPhewl. Great to see that you have found a codec that works for you.
Thats the whole point. Find one which have the sound quality (if lossy), support and features you need.

Enjoy!
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Jun 23, 2008 at 1:51 AM Post #67 of 71
Quote:

Originally Posted by tjumper78 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
when properly ripped(in my case, it'd be lame + EAC), i cant tell the difference between anything 192kbps (or above) and lossless. and thats only when i am listening thru high-end gears.
when i listened thru crappy phones and crappy source, i was not able to tell the difference between 128kbps and lossess.



That's about my experience. I almost always encode somewhere between 160 kbps and 225 kbps, depending on the CODEC, encoder, type of music, how important the recording is to me, etc. I try to leave a little margin for extra confidence.
 
Jun 24, 2008 at 8:41 PM Post #68 of 71
I have tracks that have flaws with MP3, I have tracks that have flaws with AAC, and I have tracks that have flaws with Vorbis... The reason is that all lossy have different psycho acustic tunings. One might be tuned to work perfectly with classical music, but if you throw some metal on it then it might give you a bad result. So if you only listen to Rock Music and as example MPC (Musepack) or Ogg Vorbis works perfect for you, then you could perfectly life with that solution. Playing on the Computer should be no problem, and you will even find portable players that support your lossy format of choice.
But if you have a wide taste in music, then lossy encoding can turn into a time consuming hell. It's annoying when you find a track that doesn't sound like it usually does and you have to play with encoder switches or even try different encoders if nothing works like it should.
With a lossless compression format you don't have to care about this. It only comes with the cost that your files are much bigger, which is a trade off when you want to carry our whole CD collection with you on your PMP.
Which Lossless Codec you choose will soundwise have no effect, the decoded sound is always bit identical to the original. The difference is: There are fast ones that don't need a fast processor and lots of memory for decompression. Those also don't suck your PMP battery empty in a short time. Shorten, FLAC and Apple Lossless are from this category.
Then there are Lossless Codecs that are tuned for compression ratio. But those have the trade off that they need a fast CPU or lots of memory and they usually suck your battery empty in a short time. OptimFrog, LA and Monkey Audio are famous for this.
Then there are few codecs that fall in between: Fast encoding / decoding, low hardware requirements, and medium packing result. TTA, WavPack and TAK are here to name.
Also some codecs like OptimFrog and WavPack offer a hybrid mode. In Hybrid Mode you can set a target bitrate for maximum compression, but the encoder will also create a correction file that gives you lossless playback if you have both files. With WavPack you can squeeze your songs to a lower bitrate for portable usage (where you have inferior equipment and outside noise) like 380 kbps .wv file, but for home usage you also have a second .wvc file that gives you in combination with the .wv file the full lossless quality. This saves time and space from managing a Lossless and Lossy archive of your music.

To the dude that uses both -b 320 and -V 0 with Lame: This a very bad idea. The result is bloated and sonical inferior to both 320 kbps CBR or VBR -V 0.
 
Jun 24, 2008 at 9:46 PM Post #69 of 71
all my music from my cd's is now in ogg 320 variable. DId a bit of ab'ing and thought I have to say couldn't tell the difference between mp3 320 varibale and ogg, (didn't try anything else, I didn't want to use AAC, and ogg was a favorite due to it's opensource nature.) However what's obvious is that at 192 and below ogg is noticeably nicer than mp3. Above that it really depends on the trac and the encoder used, and my setup is not good enough to really make use of the difference
 
Jun 25, 2008 at 4:18 AM Post #70 of 71
Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B.M.Head /img/forum/go_quote.gif
To the dude that uses both -b 320 and -V 0 with Lame: This a very bad idea. The result is bloated and sonical inferior to both 320 kbps CBR or VBR -V 0.


I'm all for finding what sounds best, but I'll have to run a comparison on my own to see which I prefer the sound of. Can you give me the init strings you would use for both cases use so I can compare it to my own?

Thanks in advance! ^_^
 
Jun 25, 2008 at 11:16 AM Post #71 of 71
I would simply try:

-v 0

-b 320

Use Foobar to ABX the resulting files. If you can't successfully ABX, then you are safe using -v 0, and you will save yourself a significant amount of disk space.
 

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