[Bill-P]

So, the meet is over.
 
I have quite a bit to say about each of the headphone and setup that I heard, hence... the thread. And I'm sure many others will have things to say as well, so let's share our thoughts!
 
My thanks go to jjcha for organizing and hosting this meet, jazzfan for bringing his biggest guns to share with us, and many others for coming and sharing their gears.
 
Here are my thoughts on the gears I heard: (in no particular order)
 
Audio Technica ATH-W10VTG: this was a pleasant surprise. This headphone is exactly like how I wanted my W1000 to sound like, and my mods were looking for this sound. I think the last thing I did to the W1000 would sound like this, but I'll have to ask its new owner to know what he thinks. The W10VTG has a very warm, lush, and clean/clear sound. This one is right up my alley, and aside from a bit of low bass extension, I don't think it's missing anything else. For me, personally, the syrupy, sweet and warm tonality is just perfect. Being a midrange-head, this headphone seduced me immediately. If I didn't have my HE-560 rig, and I haven't heard better midrange representation, this would have been my next purchase! The fact that it comes with standard mini plug instead of the 1/4" plug that Audio Technica has slapped on every other full-size wood headphones that they produce later on is an interesting one. Why, Audio Technica??? The mini plug would have been a lot more useful!
 
Stax SR-X: another pleasant surprise. This one sounds very detailed, very fast, and pretty neutral. What's funnier is that it sounds very similar to my modded Audio Technica ES10. If I didn't know better, I'd almost say the 2 are the same headphone but in different enclosures. Midrange is silky, and smooth, treble is present, extended, and fast, while bass is impactful without being overbearing. They are also pretty comfortable to wear, and I'd actually use them like a portable headphone if not for the amping requirement. Right around the time I was about to purchase the HE-560, I almost pulled the trigger on a used pair of SR-X, and... I'd think it would have been a good decision. Whenever my financial aspects look better, I'll definitely hunt this one down! It's one of the best Stax headphones I have ever heard. And in fact, it's probably just behind the SR-007 and SR-009.
 
Sony Qualia 010: now... a lot of people have a love-hate relationship with this headphone. And I myself am very sensitive to treble peaks around 8-10KHz. Couple that with high-volume listening that I do quite often, and it's just not a good recipe. But somehow, it wasn't bad here. The Qualia is indeed a bright headphone, and indeed there is a lower-midrange suckout, and then a bass hump, and then a lack of sub bass... but... it's not "harsh" or "sibilant" or "peaky" at all to my ears. Not one bit. Even if it's the opposite of my cup of tea, somehow, I think it's actually less peaky and harsh than the HD800 to my ears. Stock HD800 to my ears is just bad. This is not bad at all. I didn't have to adjust the fit, or fiddle around with volume, or do anything special to appreciate the massive soundstage, the punchy bass, and the super clean presentation. Granted, they are still not my cup of tea. I'd prefer a tad bit (read: a lot) more body to the sound than this, but all things being equal, it's not a bad headphone. It's just a super "bright" one, and yet, somehow I find it to be the best "bright" headphone I have ever listened. Trumping the HD800 at soundstaging and treble details.
 
Sennheiser HD800 w/ Anax Mod: this pair is jazzfan's. I got a brief listen to it through the various setups at the meet, including my own. There is still a peak in the lower treble region that stands out to me. It's especially noticeable in my setup. Still not my cup of tea all this time, and yet I can still appreciate what it does right, which is projecting a convincing 3D soundstage that's big-ish. The soundstage doesn't extend to infinity and sound "speaker-like" to my ears, but it is indeed big and very spacious/airy. Also aside from the treble range, the rest of the frequency range is very well-represented. Its bass is not lacking at all. I think when people said bass on the HD800 is lacking, perhaps they mean it doesn't have the same "body" or "meat" to the bass as some other headphones. But I think that's just the way bass is presented in the original recording to begin with, and the HD800 is just trying to reproduce the sound wave rather than the music itself. Anax mod done on this headphone is very interesting, because it still leaves a bit of the lower treble region left for some ringing, but I think it makes certain instruments (like cymbals) ring out with better tone as compared to the full mod, which sort of eliminates the peak altogether and somewhat smears the sound in return for a slightly warm tonality to the HD800. Anyway... it's still not my cup of tea, but still the best dynamic headphone for some people, and I can appreciate that.
 
Hifiman HE-6: listening to this one through my own setup, and also through jazzfan's speaker amp gave different presentations. I think the HE-6 gets more V-shaped, or more bass and slightly more treble extension out of the speaker amp. I sort of prefer the midrange better through my setup, though I think about 80% of that midrange is due to the Neko DAC than the amp itself. It also didn't help that the speaker amp was being fed by the Benchmark DAC1, which I think has a slightly dry and unemotional midrange to begin with due to its extreme neutrality. It's not a bad thing, because I think it works well with electronic and instrumental music, or anything that doesn't require injecting a bit of soul into it. And despite all of that, the HE-6 and my HE-560 are pretty tonally equivalent, surprisingly. The HE-6 can easily replace my HE-560 in my setup, and vice versa. But then I prefer the comfort of the HE-560, and its slightly less V-shape sound signature that allows the midrange to come out more, and that's that. The HE-6 can sometimes go faster than the HE-560, but that's at the expense of body or "meat" to the sound, and somehow, I think I prefer to have that extra body, too. But again, the differences between these 2 headphones are less obvious than that. The rest is more system synergy, and choice of music than anything.
 
Stax SR-009: the reigning king. Period. There is simply nothing this headphone doesn't do well. And even the things that it doesn't do well are done well enough to some standard. Tonally, it's slightly brighter than my preference allows for, but... that brightness is not synonymous with sibilance, harsh, or peaky. This is the HD800 perfected in my opinions. The soundstage is not as "large" as the HD800 (read: the HD800 has an extra mm of soundstage), but it's very coherent, and layered. I suggested jazzfan to substitute my Neko D100 DAC into the chain to see if it would make a difference compared to the Benchmark DAC1, and... surprisingly, it did. The SR-009 become more lush, more full, and somewhat more weighty after that. Personally, that was closer to my preference, and I enjoyed the living heck out of it. "Murder Style (original mix)" sounded stupendous out of this setup, and though there is a slight lack of detail due to the lusher and darker tonality of the DAC, I think I'd enjoy the SR-009 better this way, as the clarity, the extension, the soundstage, and the speed are not lost in the transition. One day, when I have enough money, I'll definitely reconsider the SR-009 as an end-game setup. Unless Stax has released the SR-010 by then...
 
Geek Out 450: this little thing sounds amazing. The first time I heard it last year, I think I lacked the appropriate gears to appreciate its tuning. But this time, I have headphones that are very close to my preference, I know exactly what sort of sound I want, and I went in for a listen... and the Geek Out delivered. Warm, bassy, slightly dark but smooth and lush. That's all I'd ever need. It doesn't have the soundstage, the scale, the dynamic, the extra layering, the euphonic qualities that I get with the Neko DAC, but then... the Geek Out is like 7-8x less pricey than the Neko, so economy of scale hits hard here. And had I not known better, I think I would have been perfectly happy with this little thing.
 
More impressions to come... as I gather my thoughts more...

 

[jazzfan]

@jjcha, Just wanted to say thanks again for providing the use of your office for this event.  You were right about the tight quarters, but never the less, I had a great time.  It was a pleasure meeting you.  We'll have to get together again some time in the future.
 
@Bill-P, Thanks for letting me try your D100 in my system.  It definitely added more bottom to the sound than my Benchmark.  I'd like to give it another listen sometime.  Maybe we can work out a swap.
 
@Everyone, It was great to meet everyone, and I'm glad I had the opportunity to try some of the many headphones that were shared at the meet.  Although I didn't get to try everything, I did discover that old gear still can be very good!  Thanks everyone.  Until next time.

 

[Bill-P]

@jazzfan, it would be my pleasure! Well, as soon as you have some free time to work this out, please let me know.
 
Currently, I'm hooked to the DAC. I have never paid any attention to DAC before, but this one is a very pleasant surprise. It is exactly what I have been looking for in a DAC!

 

[jjcha]

Definitely great seeing you guys and having you over.  Apologies for the cramped space.  I figured better to squeeze people in than cut them out - but next time, if we use the same space, I'll have it a bit more organized/cleaned out for easier access.
 
But we definitely should do something similar again soon!

 

[Bill-P]

Yes. Let's! I'll refine my amp for next time, and hopefully it won't pop or do anything weird anymore.
 
Here are some more thoughts:
 
Gustard H10: I think I would come to like this amp a lot more for low level listening. It's got a pretty big soundstage, and a pretty smooth/fluent sound. Then again, I only heard it out of the Neko DAC, so I have no idea if the smoothing came from the DAC or the amp. But at least the amp is presenting a smooth sound, so for what it's worth, it was able to convey the original source pretty well. Amp is kinda on the heavy side, and probably built like a tank. I can see why people may prefer this over the V200, especially for the price. It's not my cup of tea because there is not as much body to the sound as I'd like, and as far as bass impact goes, I think I would like to have a bit more at least. But again, this amp does have that special treble range, and it does sound very clean overall. Jeff, I think you would have liked the Yulong A28. It takes what the Gustard H10 does and goes one step further in balanced mode. The A28 is slightly warmer, and slightly brighter, with better extensions both ways, and the soundstage is just... massive.
 
Schiit Lyr 2: I have heard this one on many occasions, and still it's not to my taste. The sound is still a bit on the thin side, and even with the Neko DAC feeding it, it still tended to be slightly harsh, which is weird. Maybe a characteristic of the tubes? When I don't pay attention to vocals, though, I think I can appreciate the overall cleanliness of it, and especially in comparison to the H10 above, this amp does have some good bass impact. Perhaps this is the "body" to the sound that people kept mentioning. With some headphones that need the extra treble boost, this one is excellent (Denon D750?). With some other headphones that are already bright to begin with, I don't think it's such a good idea. Perhaps I just need to hear it paired with a fully upgraded Bifrost and see how it sounds then?
 
Denon D750: it's a very nice sounding headphone indeed. Makes me wonder why Denon decided to outsource their headphone manufacturing business and go for a more V-shape tuning instead. If they had kept the D750/D950 lineup around for a while longer, I think they would be raking in a lot more money. This is one interesting headphone. It's "vintage", but it doesn't quite sound so "vintage" at all. Except for the soundstage, which sounds a bit cavernous and reverberative, I think the rest of the sound is very good, with a nice balance to it all. In fact, I don't think it's the fault of the headphone. Back then, we didn't really have recording techniques that we do today, and so most recordings were done either closed-mic or very two-dimensional, with music coming from either the left or right channel but never a blend in between. So in order to recreate a convincing soundstage, perhaps the cavern was the best idea at the time. I noticed this with my dad's vintage Pioneer SE-50 as well. They have a very smooth, soothing, dark-ish sound, and they also have a cavernous soundstage. Anyway, overall, I think this is a very enjoyable headphone, and an insane value for the money. Except they're pretty much impossible to find these days. Let's hope Denon will one day bring them back, or at least go back to this tuning.

 

[No_One411]

  Yes. Let's! I'll refine my amp for next time, and hopefully it won't pop or do anything weird anymore.
 
Here are some more thoughts:
 
Gustard H10: I think I would come to like this amp a lot more for low level listening. It's got a pretty big soundstage, and a pretty smooth/fluent sound. Then again, I only heard it out of the Neko DAC, so I have no idea if the smoothing came from the DAC or the amp. But at least the amp is presenting a smooth sound, so for what it's worth, it was able to convey the original source pretty well. Amp is kinda on the heavy side, and probably built like a tank. I can see why people may prefer this over the V200, especially for the price. It's not my cup of tea because there is not as much body to the sound as I'd like, and as far as bass impact goes, I think I would like to have a bit more at least. But again, this amp does have that special treble range, and it does sound very clean overall. Jeff, I think you would have liked the Yulong A28. It takes what the Gustard H10 does and goes one step further in balanced mode. The A28 is slightly warmer, and slightly brighter, with better extensions both ways, and the soundstage is just... massive.
 
Schiit Lyr 2: I have heard this one on many occasions, and still it's not to my taste. The sound is still a bit on the thin side, and even with the Neko DAC feeding it, it still tended to be slightly harsh, which is weird. Maybe a characteristic of the tubes? When I don't pay attention to vocals, though, I think I can appreciate the overall cleanliness of it, and especially in comparison to the H10 above, this amp does have some good bass impact. Perhaps this is the "body" to the sound that people kept mentioning. With some headphones that need the extra treble boost, this one is excellent (Denon D750?). With some other headphones that are already bright to begin with, I don't think it's such a good idea. Perhaps I just need to hear it paired with a fully upgraded Bifrost and see how it sounds then?
 
Denon D750: it's a very nice sounding headphone indeed. Makes me wonder why Denon decided to outsource their headphone manufacturing business and go for a more V-shape tuning instead. If they had kept the D750/D950 lineup around for a while longer, I think they would be raking in a lot more money. This is one interesting headphone. It's "vintage", but it doesn't quite sound so "vintage" at all. Except for the soundstage, which sounds a bit cavernous and reverberative, I think the rest of the sound is very good, with a nice balance to it all. In fact, I don't think it's the fault of the headphone. Back then, we didn't really have recording techniques that we do today, and so most recordings were done either closed-mic or very two-dimensional, with music coming from either the left or right channel but never a blend in between. So in order to recreate a convincing soundstage, perhaps the cavern was the best idea at the time. I noticed this with my dad's vintage Pioneer SE-50 as well. They have a very smooth, soothing, dark-ish sound, and they also have a cavernous soundstage. Anyway, overall, I think this is a very enjoyable headphone, and an insane value for the money. Except they're pretty much impossible to find these days. Let's hope Denon will one day bring them back, or at least go back to this tuning.

It would have been nice to listen to the Yulong A28 to compare. I've just been so happy with the Gustard that the motivation to buy any solid-state amplifier under $1000 has disappeared. As you noticed, it is on the smoother side of things, not cold or analytical. I do agree that it is a bit light on the bass, but that actually matches my preferences for cleaner bass notes. It's built like the Violectric amps, so I'm not surprised at the build quality. I was super surprised at how heavy the package was when it arrived on my doorstep...
 
I also thought it didn't do that poorly with the HE-6. We never tried it with +12 pre-gain switch toggled, which may have helped it a bit more... The thing that surprised me most was how I could keep Bill's DIY amp at roughly the same volume level with both the HE560 and HE6. The HE6 obviously took more volume, but it wasn't like a 4-5 turn difference between both headphone to sing. 
 
The issue with an overly expansive soundstage is that instrument separation is sometimes overdone. This occurs quite often with classical recordings. You lose a lot of body with some instruments and overall imaging suffers quite a bit. 
 
The vintage Denon headphones were once again quite nice. It's more neutral signature matches my tastes pretty well. The only problem is availability and the god awful earpads. I absolutely hate those types of pleather earpads, it just feels completely unnatural on my ears. It also is more on-ear than over-ear for me, which is a bit minus unless the pads are done like the Audio Technica leather earpads or KEF M500 earpads. A driver transplant into something more comfortable would be interesting, but then that usually opens another can of worms. 
 
Overall a great meet. Highlight of the meet was the Stax SR-009 and Qualias. Both offered distinct advantages over the HD-800 for me, but unfortunately have drawbacks that I cannot accept at this time. Read...availability, and cost of ownership. 

 

 

[DecentLevi]

Hello all, first I would like to say thanks again to Jason for hosting the meeting. Yes that would be 'kickin to do this again sometime. Maybe maybe we should wait at least 4, or even 12 months so that by that time maybe we will have cycled through a different variety of headphones avail. to try out.

The Stax SR-009 'phones were quite impressive; it was my first time hearing electrostatic headphones and I don't know who else noticed it, but it was like the speed and organic sound reproduction were is strengths; as if every nuance, every crackle was injected with a force of extra realism. I believe electrostastic speaker design has more potential than the dynamic, and is especially pleasing for people like me who enjoy a fairly analytical and textured treble, but the technology is generally incapable of producing strong bass which makes it not quite for everybody (but good for me). I had spent a deal of time Sunday searching for another electrostatic can for a more affordable price... say under $500-ish [any advice]?? but all I found were a Koss and another Stax that was manufactured all the way back in 1975-79; super old and that require a massive 30 ohm amp. So I'll just have to put my electrostatic plans on hold for now :blink:

I was also blown away with the Denon AH D750's. The treble presentation was bar-none the best I've ever heard, more realistic on that front than HD-800 but not quite up to par with the Stax 009, but it was the sense of airyness and texture that could almost give me goosebumps! Their only issue was the bass, seemed slightly articifial and rolled off in the sub-bass. But WOW, I will try to track down one of these relics.

The headphone I walked out of there saying I'm going to buy is the Senn. HD 800. I like it for the lifelike soundstage, revealing treble & midrange and slightly recessed bass - but only to discover the &%^* thing costs $1500. Somehow I thought it was closer to $800, does anybody know a cheaper deal for this can; if even slighly used?

If not, I think I may just take my chances with in-ear phones for now. I have tried around 5 of the hi-end models before and hated each one of them around 5 years ago, but it seems these days in-ear and IEM technology has advanced; some of these have as many as 3 separate drivers that are acousticly placed; so I may just try my hand at finding a pair that has the ability to sound (more or less) just like the HD 800. But I guess the in-ears are not the type that can be shared at a meeting due to transfer of ear-germs & the like, so you have to buy-it-to-try-it, right?

Meanwhile, I am waiting for another meeting here or maybe elsewhere in another city to finally try the Audeze LCD-3 and Beyer. T1, Mad Dogs & Alpha dogs. Those just may be my nirvanna, as I was surprisingly underimpressed by the LCD-2 and HE-6 ; those both seemed overtly flat and not textured enough on the highs.

 

[NoPants]

SR207 can be had for ~$300 NIB, scales from there

 

[DecentLevi]

Thank you "NoPants", but from what I just looked up, the Stax SR-207's don't seem to excel in clarity and has a smooth high end instead of textured & revealing. But it was interesting to read that the SR-207 is said to have a new driver type, so this makes me wonder if this 'can is actually newer than the higer model numbers in this line (IE SR 307, 407, 507). Then I read something that the 307, 407 & 507 have the same driver so it may be that the lower model number is actually superior. If anybody sights me wrong about the treble then let me know.

 

[NoPants]

I believe x07 series all share the same driver, you're just adding luxury features as you move up the line. This may or may not affect the sound. I can tell you from personal experience that the 307 has more treble presence, but that's about it. I could go on but it'll probably just come off as an ad for my 3170 system

 

[DecentLevi]

Hello Guys, in case anyon'e interested I snagged down my own pair of the Denon AH D750's. These were made about 20 years ago but are in pristine condition, minus the thin foam covering on the driver.

I would like some feedback at least. So anyway it's the strangest thing - This pair sounds almost nothing like the other AH D750 that I auditioned at the head-fi meeting with you guys. This one has extremely recessed treble, exaggerated mids and overpowering, boomy bass; making it a very dark & slow 'can compared with the other identical model I tried which had detailed & airy treble and a slighly warm yet wonderfully flat sound signature.

Both 'cans were hooked up to the exact same amp setup and the same song as well. I suppose it just sometimes happens that not all headphones are manufactured consistently so sometimes your headphone can rally be unique.

I'm not selling them on this thread, but if anybody's still interested let me know and I can list it on the selling forums.

 

[baronkatz]

Hello Guys, in case anyon'e interested I snagged down my own pair of the Denon AH D750's. These were made about 20 years ago but are in pristine condition, minus the thin foam covering on the driver.

I would like some feedback at least. So anyway it's the strangest thing - This pair sounds almost nothing like the other AH D750 that I auditioned at the head-fi meeting with you guys. This one has extremely recessed treble, exaggerated mids and overpowering, boomy bass; making it a very dark & slow 'can compared with the other identical model I tried which had detailed & airy treble and a slighly warm yet wonderfully flat sound signature.

Both 'cans were hooked up to the exact same amp setup and the same song as well. I suppose it just sometimes happens that not all headphones are manufactured consistently so sometimes your headphone can rally be unique.

I'm not selling them on this thread, but if anybody's still interested let me know and I can list it on the selling forums.

Hi Levi,
 
Were they like new and hardly used? Mine were a bit worn and broken in already. It takes time for the headphone drivers to break in and they change their character over time. Another thing I would suggest if you want to get rid of that and make it more airy, is to stuff the drivers with wool, so that they beocme angled. This really helps with the comfort level since those grills really hurt your ears after a little while of listening. The earpads are kind of almost glued with a back sticky stuff that's quite nasty, so when you try to separate to stuff them, you will get a lot of it on your nails that's hard to wash off. I woud suggest using medical gloves when doing this. I didn't really stuff those D750's, but I did loosen up the cups a bit so they separated, this helped get rid of some of the boomy bass. But again, the main thing is the condition they are in as well, how they were used, etc... How much did you get them for? Used they sell for around $50 and new for around $100 these days.

 

[DecentLevi]

I paid $200 + $10 shipping. I guess the owner didn't remember right because he told me he bought them for somewhere near $200 when he got them. But if I were to resell them, it seems I may be able to recoup most of what I spent, given how rare they are.

The headphones came sealed in a ziplock bag and the owner told me he always stored them like this. The material was basically free from scrateches or blemishes and not worn out at all too, so I could presume they may not have been burned in very well. BUT does anyone actually think it's possible to still burn in a headphone from 20 years ago?! If so, how to go: med. loud pink noise for about 20 hours, perhaps?

Sorry, you got me totally confused about your mod ideas.
- Did you say yout had put any wool in yours?
- What kind of wool are you talking about, and where would I get something like it?
- Would that actually make a difference using that instead of the current padding under the foam cushions?
- I don't at all understand what you mean by "loosening up" or separating the cups. Does this mean to half way unscrew something or rip half way so it's half way dangling or something?

THANKS SO MUCH in advance!!

 

[baronkatz]

I paid $200 + $10 shipping. I guess the owner didn't remember right because he told me he bought them for somewhere near $200 when he got them. But if I were to resell them, it seems I may be able to recoup most of what I spent, given how rare they are.

The headphones came sealed in a ziplock bag and the owner told me he always stored them like this. The material was basically free from scrateches or blemishes and not worn out at all too, so I could presume they may not have been burned in very well. BUT does anyone actually think it's possible to still burn in a headphone from 20 years ago?! If so, how to go: med. loud pink noise for about 20 hours, perhaps?

Sorry, you got me totally confused about your mod ideas.
- Did you say yout had put any wool in yours?
- What kind of wool are you talking about, and where would I get something like it?
- Would that actually make a difference using that instead of the current padding under the foam cushions?
- I don't at all understand what you mean by "loosening up" or separating the cups. Does this mean to half way unscrew something or rip half way so it's half way dangling or something?

THANKS SO MUCH in advance!!

Sorry for the late reply. Been a busy week. I'm not sure you could resell it for $200, that's a bit steep. You can buy them new on eBay for around $100 and about $200 new if it was the D950. Are you sure it's the 750? The 750 had white lettering, the 950 had gold... If it's used, you will end up getting maybe $60-$70 for it, maybe $100 if you're really lucky. I would keep them if I were you...
 
I didn't put any wool in the D750's, I just put my finger under the pads to separate them a bit from the cups. This is for comfort, but did change the sound a bit. The padding makes a huge difference. You can buy just raw wool that comes from a crafts store in a long snakelike shape, sold in plastic bags. Try stuffing the pads with that, I think it should get rid of some of the bass and make them sound more neutral. Also you could try stuffing more of the wool in the back rather than the front, this will angle the drivers to make it sound a lot more clear and open.
 
WARNING: When you stuff under the pads with the wool, be careful. The pads are made of a really horrible synthetic material, they probably WILL crack a bit. However, the level of comfort and sound will improve tremendously... It's really a night and day difference in both...