Recommendation - Music Production, Mixing , Mastering (Audeze EL-8 VS LCD X)

[fauxfauxb]

Hey All,
 
So im weighing my options for what will hopefully be an end-game headphone. 
What im looking for ...
 
    - Decently neutral response + Full Frequency Range: Doesn't have to be THE most neutral headphone as my ears will learn the signature over time but anything that cannot reproduce certain frequencies is out.
      eg: HD 600 apparently nice and neutral but bass rolls off way too early imo (havent heard but judging from graphs), Focal Spirit Professional = best ive used so far
 
    - Open Back: primary use case will be in a studio with no one else in the room to bother so some leakage is fine, better soundstage of open prefered
 
    - Price: $500 to $1700 CAD
 
    - Comfort: Since what ever I get will need to be used for long periods of time comfort is key. 
    eg: Beyerdynamic DT990 = wonderful ear pillow, Focal Spirit Pro = Ear-mushing clamp force champion
 
    - Impedance: Preferably something that is under ~80ohm, generally I will be using the phones in an rme uc audio interface which probably has more juice than ur average ipod but I dont want to have a hugely altered experience if I swap from that to a computer or something.
 
My Impressions so Far (Of Other headphones)
    - ATH M50 & M50x : Great for the money, fairly comfortable, v.small soundstage, semi harsh high end, boomy muddy bass
 
    - Beyerdynamic DT990: Decent cans, super comfortable!, great sound stage, very harsh and peaky treble, bass a bit lacking in presence (rolloff) but decent control & refinement with what was there.
 
    - Focal Spirit Professional: Great headphones, Quite uncomfortable (high clamp force, pads mush your ears), amazing sound stage for closed headphones, frequency range is great, neutral, very fast response, bass is well defined and controlled with nice extension but not overbearing. (favourite so far but i don't like wearing them for long).
 
 
Which brings me to the EL-8 & LCD-X...
 
These are the two cans I have been considering so far as they generally seem to fit the bill. If anyone has a direct comparison of these two cans for purposes similar to mine that would be 
awesome. My main concern is...
    - Buying EL-8 and then wanting to get the LCD-X in X amount of time
    - LCD X is essentially double or more the price (is that really worth it, how far into the land of diminishing returns are we at this point)
    - LCD X is better for my described purposes than the EL-8 ? Seems like it might be aimed at more of a fun sound type market (cool looks, etc)
 
Also if anyone has a recommendation that they think would better fit my purposes I am open to it. Keeping in mind that IMO, if you look at a graph for ..
eg: HD600, HiFiMan 400s,
The bass roll off on those for the price , to me , is unacceptable. 
 
Lastly,Things I am aware of
    - Very few headphones (if any) are truly neutral
    - You shouldn't mix on headphones (I have monitors, this is for when I cant use them eg: late night)
 
Thanks,
Faux

 

[Me x3]

Well, you should take FR graphs with a grain of salt.
Different setups = Different results.
 
Had the HD600 and the bass extends pretty well, it has a slight boost in the mid-bass but the sub-bass is still there.
DT990s have a bigger boost in the mid-bass and thus the sub-bass can be masked.
 
HD650 is slightly warmer and smoother than HD600, but also clearer/more resolving (differences are subtle but audible)
Here's my HD650

 
In my graph, 30Hz is at the same level as 1kHz
Change the setup, or the compensation and you'll get a different plot.
There's no such a thing as the absolute compensation so graphs can be really tricky.
 
You preferences play a key role here.
 
I think LCD-X is probably a very good headphone for your purposes (although it might be a tad heavy)
You should also consider the Hifiman Edition X which is just a tad more 'neutral' (less dark) than LCD-X, it's lighter and still very easy to drive.
 
Best Luck!

 

[fauxfauxb]

Hey Thanks for weighing in,
 
Yeah typically I only use the inner fidelity measurements as a reference for freq response as he seems to have a decent way of setting it up.
 
I guess the main thing that threw me off looking at the graphs is if you look at the focal spirit pro....
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FocalSpiritProfessional.pdf
 
It extends with a slight hump over most of the bass region with no drop off and I wouldnt consider it to be a boomy basshead sounding phone at all, it just reproduces what is there.
 
Where as checking what he had for the senny's they both seem to drop off more starting just shy of 100hz
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD650.pdf
 
Its tough making these calls just from graphs though you are right. I wish there was somewhere to test out headphones like these in Canada but unfortunately not only can you not listen to them in any stores but many places wont even accept returns on headphones . 
 
Anyhow thanks for the input! Il have to do some research on the hifiman x

 

[Me x3]

  Hey Thanks for weighing in,
 
Yeah typically I only use the inner fidelity measurements as a reference for freq response as he seems to have a decent way of setting it up.
 
I guess the main thing that threw me off looking at the graphs is if you look at the focal spirit pro....
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FocalSpiritProfessional.pdf
 
It extends with a slight hump over most of the bass region with no drop off and I wouldnt consider it to be a boomy basshead sounding phone at all, it just reproduces what is there.
 
Where as checking what he had for the senny's they both seem to drop off more starting just shy of 100hz
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD650.pdf
 
Its tough making these calls just from graphs though you are right. I wish there was somewhere to test out headphones like these in Canada but unfortunately not only can you not listen to them in any stores but many places wont even accept returns on headphones . 
 
Anyhow thanks for the input! Il have to do some research on the hifiman x

Tyll (innerfideiity) has very good equipment, but there'a a compensation applied (the raw measurment is in grey and do not reflect what we hear)
There are some assumptions he make to go for the compensation he uses (and leads to their graphs)
 
What's great about Tyll's work is that he has measured and measures many headphones so it's a great database, and there's more than just FR plots.
That said it's not a source for absolute Frequency Response charts. (And there's no such a thing as absolute FR charts for now)
 
The Sennheiser HD650 is clearly warm and mid-bassy. Based on Tyll's measurements it looks much flatter and less extended.
Then HD800 is clearly brighter than Innerfidelity measurements suggest. And so on...
 
In my experience comparing FR plots of very different headphones (Compact closed back vs Big Open back) can be even more tricky.
 
If you liked the Focal Spirit Pro then you are in the right path with HD650/LCD-X/Edition X
(although Edition X might be a tad more neutral with less impact)
 
Diminishing reuturs strikes pretty hard at this point.
If you can't try, I would say the HD650 is surely a safer bet since it's much cheaper, very good as a reference and there's still a chance you like them more than those expensive models.
You can always sell them in the future for similar money if you treat them with care.
 
What music are you normally listening to?

 

[fauxfauxb]

True, yeah I delved into his explanations of the measurement graphs today and it seems like its a bit of a dodgy thing to measure even if you have the proper equipment.
Maybe I can convince my local music store to break out a pair of 650s for testing, il see how that goes. How do you find the soundstage on the 650? I found 900 soundstage pretty good, focal spirit pro quite a bit less so. Impressive for a closed back though. Thinking of listing the focals for sale to put towards one of these other ones.
 
My listening is all over the map honestly. Bonobo, Led zeppelin, Chopin, Bob Marley, Drake, lots of UG electronic (Djemba Djemba, kaytranada, etc), deadmau5, lamb of god, bob dylan, ... essentially I like good music of any style hahah.

 

[Me x3]

  True, yeah I delved into his explanations of the measurement graphs today and it seems like its a bit of a dodgy thing to measure even if you have the proper equipment.
Maybe I can convince my local music store to break out a pair of 650s for testing, il see how that goes. How do you find the soundstage on the 650? I found 900 soundstage pretty good, focal spirit pro quite a bit less so. Impressive for a closed back though. Thinking of listing the focals for sale to put towards one of these other ones.
 
My listening is all over the map honestly. Bonobo, Led zeppelin, Chopin, Bob Marley, Drake, lots of UG electronic (Djemba Djemba, kaytranada, etc), deadmau5, lamb of god, bob dylan, ... essentially I like good music of any style hahah.

 
The HD650 is relatively mid-forward so the soundstage has an intimate feel to it, although it can be quite expansive.
Opposite to headphones with softer upper midrange like DT880 or HD800 that are typically colder and more distant, but more roomy at the same time.
 
What's good about HD650 is that it's a very resolving/clear headphone provided good source and transparent amplifier.
The soundstage might not be K702-wide but you can hear everything clear and well defined within the soundstage. Vocal rendering in particular is very good.
 
Granted, soundstage depends strongly on the recording.
 
From memories DT990s sound airier (and much brighter) than HD650. 
DT990's profile (mid-bass boost, soft upper mids and bright extended treble) push the soundstage up giving good sense of openess. 
That said, I think the whole picutre is more clear in the HD650. 
DT990s soundstage while expansive and full of Wow factor for movies and so on... can lack layering when it comes to very critical listening.

 

[fauxfauxb]

   
The HD650 is relatively mid-forward so the soundstage has an intimate feel to it, although it can be quite expansive.
Opposite to headphones with softer upper midrange like DT880 or HD800 that are typically colder and more distant, but more roomy at the same time.
 
What's good about HD650 is that it's a very resolving/clear headphone provided good source and transparent amplifier.
The soundstage might not be K702-wide but you can hear everything clear and well defined within the soundstage. Vocal rendering in particular is very good.
 
Granted, soundstage depends strongly on the recording.
 
From memories DT990s sound airier (and much brighter) than HD650. 
DT990's profile (mid-bass boost, soft upper mids and bright extended treble) push the soundstage up giving good sense of openess. 
That said, I think the whole picutre is more clear in the HD650. 
DT990s soundstage while expansive and full of Wow factor for movies and so on... can lack layering when it comes to very critical listening.

Have you listening to AKG 702's much? If so how would you compare the HD650 to those? Their graphs look somewhat similar on Inner Fidelity.
I had a pair of those for a very short while, amazing sound stage, very resolving, but I felt like bass was pretty distant feeling. Like it just faded away into the massive sound stage hahah.

 

[SeaWo|f]

FWiW I have heard the LCD-X run balanced on a totl solid state amp and it was very transparent. It did not exhibit any of the house audeze sound to my ears. I also did not find it dark when back to backed with the HeK. The lcd3f on the other hand, on the same setup had the typical audeze creamy delivery, personally I like this sound. IDK how what I heard it on would translate into what you are plugging it into in studio. I have the HD650 and I would put the lcd-x to me as noticeably more resolving, and not as warm.
 
Comfort wise I am pretty picky and the headband fit me well, but if it doesn't fit you, I think you can upgrade to the carbon suspension band from the lcd-4. I normally don't like leather pads but audeze pads are an exception and they have a leather free option if that suits you.

 

[fauxfauxb]

  FWiW I have heard the LCD-X run balanced on a totl solid state amp and it was very transparent. It did not exhibit any of the house audeze sound to my ears. I also did not find it dark when back to backed with the HeK. The lcd3f on the other hand, on the same setup had the typical audeze creamy delivery, personally I like this sound. IDK how what I heard it on would translate into what you are plugging it into in studio. I have the HD650 and I would put the lcd-x to me as noticeably more resolving, and not as warm.
 
Comfort wise I am pretty picky and the headband fit me well, but if it doesn't fit you, I think you can upgrade to the carbon suspension band from the lcd-4. I normally don't like leather pads but audeze pads are an exception and they have a leather free option if that suits you.

Yeah From all the content Im seeing on this forum/gearslutz/internet at large its starting to seem like the LCD X is really the way to go here. Definitely looking for something in the neutral category, too bad some of the other LCD models dont fit the bill as used LCD 2's are almost half $ an LCD X. 
 
Do you find they get hot / heavy after a while? Yeah I noticed some people have some kind of suspension mod on the LCD X model sometimes, I see you can get velour pads potentially as well which I presume would be more comfortable but maybe alter the sound characteristics in some way.
 
Also how would you compare the soundstage on them to other cans?
 
Starting to do some accounting to see if I can cough up ~$1500 between selling some other cans / guitar / etc.

 

[Me x3]

  Have you listening to AKG 702's much? If so how would you compare the HD650 to those? Their graphs look somewhat similar on Inner Fidelity.
I had a pair of those for a very short while, amazing sound stage, very resolving, but I felt like bass was pretty distant feeling. Like it just faded away into the massive sound stage hahah.

 
K702s have significantly less mid-bass than HD650, significantly raised 2kHz, and they have more energy in the 7kHz region.
 
K702 shines with top class recordings, it's definitely unforgiving and can sound unnatural with the average song.
Provided great recordings, it's a very capable headphone, the bass is tighter (hit faster and clearer), there's better instrument separation, more detail and space.
 
There's always a trade off, so while HD650 is soft, easy on the ears, good all rounder, cohessive, intimate and resolving in the midrange, the K702 in much more tricky, and it can be more diffuse.
 
Pros:
- Top soundstage for the price
- Pretty neutral response
- Cleaner and more layered bass
 
Main dowfalls for K702:
- You need those warm, lush, uncompressed, masterfully made recordings to make them shine
- Can be nasal
- It is extremely dry sounding

 

[SeaWo|f]

 
Do you find they get hot / heavy after a while? Yeah I noticed some people have some kind of suspension mod on the LCD X model sometimes, I see you can get velour pads potentially as well which I presume would be more comfortable but maybe alter the sound characteristics in some way.
 
Also how would you compare the soundstage on them to other cans?
 

 
I wore them at a very cool location so there was no way they could get hot. Weight was not a problem for me, I notice hotspots on headbands even on relatively light headphones. The lcd band does not create one on my head at all. If you have a different shaped head that might change, also if purely weight is an issue for you then you will only know by trying them on.. I have heard changing pad material in this line has a minimal effect, probably because they designed the non leather pads to be similar to the leather. I have heard it results in slightly less bass impact. I listened to R&B, rock and pop in my demo not the best for sound stage analysis. I was really looking into tonality, clarity and presentation for myself.