Proper Listening Levels (Dynamic and Electrostatic)

[Mikenet]

Short Version: Do dynamic headphones have to be played at fatiguing levels for proper sound?

Long Version:I normally listen at extremely low levels. I went to a couple meets last year, and couldn't believe what was considered 'normal'...

I've been lurking for a long time, but I've put off buying all equipment except for a pair of Sharp MD33's for sleeping(binaural beats, etc). Well, as luck would have it, I fell in love with their midrange. It's the polar opposite of the typical college audio setups I get to hear all day(high highs, low lows, and absolutely nothing in between...I don't know how people even hear vocals

). Still, the high end seemed sort of metallic, and the low end just seemed lacking.

Today I tried turning them up. WOW! It felt like someone flipped a switch marked 'headstage'. The bass also 'filled in', it's not necessarily louder, but it feels like the music has more guts. They usually sit at the lowest volume setting on my 4G iPod(with soundcheck on, so subtract another 6-10dB), and even that is pretty loud(keep in mind the MD33's are pretty sensitive, 105dB/mW, I don't have the impedance handy, but it was pretty low, probably around 16 ohms). I had them sitting around 20% on the iPod. Anything more than 30% is uncomfortable for even a few seconds.

I know that sounds kind of funny, my first reaction if something doesn't sound full should be to turn it up. But I came from a world of bad headphones where turning things up just made them louder...

My problem is I don't like listening to music loud. With most headphones, if I go any louder than my normal levels my ears seem desensitized afterwards. With the MD33's at high volumes my ears actually seem hypersensitive afterwards(which probably has something to do with putting foreign object in my ears...in any case it doesn't happen at low volumes). I played around with inverse Fletcher-Munson equalization, and while it helped a little bit, it wasn't nearly enough.

So my question to you all: Do all headphones have to be played loud to give music guts and a headstage? Or is this an artifact of dynamic transducers? Would electrostats solve my problem?

The real world doesn't have this problem. I can hear detail, positioning, etc with sounds much softer than this, so it seems to be related to the transducers. Some speakers I've played with exhibit this to a small extent, but definitely not to this degree.

I've been lusting after a pair of SR-303's or SR-404's for awhile. Maybe this is a good excuse.

Maybe I should try an SR-001 or SR-005 first to see if that solves my problem.

Man, Heaf-Fi will take whatever path it can into my wallet! Even hearing conservation!

 

[bigshot]

I listen to a lot of classical music. The proper volume for classical is as close to the volume produced by real instruments as possible. Some classical music is very loud, but in general, this means that instead of more wattage to make everything louder, you need to reduce the ambient noise of your listening room to make the quiet passages audible. When you strike the proper volume, the soundstage is perfect, the instruments all fall into their proper place, and you get a very natural sounding presence to the music. It can be difficult to do that in the city, but it's worth striving for.

See ya
Steve

 

[mikeg]

When you suggest that the volume should be set as close to that produced by a real instrument, what listening position/distance from the instrument, do you assume? For example, do you suggest the conductor's distance from the instrument, or perhaps a mid-orchestral hall listening position?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot I listen to a lot of classical music. The proper volume for classical is as close to the volume produced by real instruments as possible. Some classical music is very loud, but in general, this means that instead of more wattage to make everything louder, you need to reduce the ambient noise of your listening room to make the quiet passages audible. When you strike the proper volume, the soundstage is perfect, the instruments all fall into their proper place, and you get a very natural sounding presence to the music. It can be difficult to do that in the city, but it's worth striving for. See ya Steve

 

[iancraig10]

I ease the volume up until I feel that the 'presence' is correct. I find that it varies great deal with the recording. This may be because the mic distance from the source is variable in acoustic recordings.

I try to keep volume down since I had a scare with noises in my ears not so long ago so now I am very careful.

 

[catscratch]

Electrostatics in general aren't the answer to this problem, but some specific electrostatic phones are. You're right in naming the SR-404, it certainly doesn't lose either soundstage or body when played quiet(er), though it will be lacking in impact at those levels (but so will everything). The SR-001, and I persume the SR-005 as well, sounds best when played loud - the treble is pretty rolled-off, and you have to crank it some ways before you get at the last level of treble detail. The 001's amp also doesn't seem like it gets enough juice under battery power to get it going, and doesn't really open up until the volume is in an unreasonable position.

I think the O2's would be best, based on what I've read, as they would give you a solid low end even at very low listening levels.

 

[bigshot]

I figure about tenth row in the audience. I think they usually mike orchestras a way back too.

See ya
Steve

 

[Mikenet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iancraig10 I ease the volume up until I feel that the 'presence' is correct. I find that it varies great deal with the recording. This may be because the mic distance from the source is variable in acoustic recordings. I try to keep volume down since I had a scare with noises in my ears not so long ago so now I am very careful.

That's what I'm trying to do now. The problem is, the level where the soundstage falls into place is above what I consider a comfortable level. Getting a good feeling of presence sometimes requires pushing the levels further. This is all very dependant on the recording, however. Some CDs don't gain anything from loudness, while some rock albums need painful levels before the vocals 'pop out' of the guitar.

I too had a scare with noises awhile ago(software bug in a mixer => headphones). My hearing felt off for about a week, so I went in and had it checked. Turned out I can hear some sine tones below 0dB, and comprehend speech at 0db(peak? RMS? I'm not sure). So maybe my ears are just very sensitive.

Listening too close to live music is often too much for me. I prefer to either sit towards the back(10th row sounds about right), or throw in a pair of ER-20 earplugs

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch Electrostatics in general aren't the answer to this problem, but some specific electrostatic phones are. You're right in naming the SR-404, it certainly doesn't lose either soundstage or body when played quiet(er), though it will be lacking in impact at those levels (but so will everything). The SR-001, and I persume the SR-005 as well, sounds best when played loud - the treble is pretty rolled-off, and you have to crank it some ways before you get at the last level of treble detail. The 001's amp also doesn't seem like it gets enough juice under battery power to get it going, and doesn't really open up until the volume is in an unreasonable position. I think the O2's would be best, based on what I've read, as they would give you a solid low end even at very low listening levels.

Some of it may just be my specific headphones(MD33's, some Sony noise canceling phones, an old Sony monitor, and a bunch of cheapies). At the couple of meets I went to, I remember everything having presence and soundstage, although they were all cranked above comfortable levels due to the high ambient noise level.

At one meet I switched back and forth between HD-600/650's and some Grados, and noticed that some recordings seemed to come alive on one or the other, but rarely both. But as I switched back and forth, I seem to remember pushing the volume further each time. I thought it was to overcome the ambient noise, but maybe it affected my perception of the headstage.

I did get to try out both the SR-404 and the SR-003 at one meet. I was in a corner(slightly less noisy), and I remember their wonderful headstage...even though I was playing them at fairly low levels. Isn't the SR-001/SR-003 supposed to have a fairly hefty bass presence? The SR-003 was being powered by an older Stax amp though(I don't remember which), not the SRM-001 or the SRM-212(which come in the packages).

The O2 is way beyond my price range. College budget here. That, and I’d want to DIY a good amp to go with it, and well, I just don’t trust myself around high voltage power supplies.

 

[Ferbose]

The average listening level of music should be around 65dB. Studies have shown that people tend to turn up to 80 dB if the environment is noisy, but at that level long-term hearing damage may take place.

To answer your question (short version), the answer is no.

Several factors come into play here.
1. Objective loudness is not even at different frequencies. 90dB SPL of 1000 KHz is perceived to be louder than 90 dB SPL at 50 Hz. When both are lowered to 60 dB, the perceived difference is even bigger. Therefore at lower listening volumes, bass may be perceived as lacking.
2. Some headphones and speakers sound different when they are playing at lower volumes. They are generally tuned to sound better at medium-high listening volumes. At lower volumes, they can sound congested or weak.
3. If people listen to loud music often. Their hearing displays habituation and will want to listen to music at louder and louder levels. This is dangerous.
4. Good classical music has the greatest dynamics of all music types. Peak to average difference can approach 30 dB. Another 5 dB of extra headroom is required so that the system is not overtaxed. A good audio system should be able to reach 105 dB. The average listening level can then be around 70 dB and then the system will have great dynamic range. This is probably the reasonable scenario for classical music fans.
5. Some people beleive that any given recording sounds best at a particular volume only. I don't believe this is true.
6. Live music can be really loud or not so loud depending on the type of concert involved or seating distance. Rock concerts can reach 120 dB for some audience members, and this is quite dangerous. Loudness in classical concerts has everything to do with seating becuase it is not amplified. I usually sit in the back because of my shallow wallet, and I am often amazed by how low the volume is. Nevertheless, a balcony seat still gives me great clarity, ambience and tonality, despite the low volume. If you sit in the front row in a classical concert, you might get 110 dB SPL at music peaks. If you sit on the balcony, the volume can be 15 dB lower. IMHO, there is no such thing as a realistic volume.
7. Think of a piano recording, how loud should it be to be realistic? A grand piano will be deafening if you stand next to it and quite soft if you are in the balcony seat of a big hall. At the pianist position it is not so loud becuase the lid reflects the sound. The recording microphone may be 3 feet from the piano, but the engineer probably mastered it so it sounds like 30 feet from the piano and feel the ambience of the hall. As long as something sounds good, the volume is really not so important.

 

[Mikenet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferbose 1. Objective loudness is not even at different frequencies. 90dB SPL of 1000 KHz is perceived to be louder than 90 dB SPL at 50 Hz. When both are lowered to 60 dB, the perceived difference is even bigger. Therefore at lower listening volumes, bass may be perceived as lacking.

I've played around with some EQ to try to even out the differences, and while it helps a little, it still has a way to go. If the differences are not too great, wouldn't the brain equalize them out after a short period of listening, anyway? (I'm used to low level listening...to the point where loud amplified concerts sound like the FR is off to me)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferbose 2. Some headphones and speakers sound different when they are playing at lower volumes. They are generally tuned to sound better at medium-high listening volumes. At lower volumes, they can sound congested or weak.

This is exactly what I've been hearing. Turning things up doesn't just change the tonal balance, but seems to make the headphones perform better as a whole. Like putting in better drivers. I guess my question should have been are there any headphones/drivers that would be better suited to lower listening levels?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferbose Nevertheless, a balcony seat still gives me great clarity, ambience and tonality, despite the low volume. If you sit in the front row in a classical concert, you might get 110 dB SPL at music peaks. If you sit on the balcony, the volume can be 15 dB lower. IMHO, there is no such thing as a realistic volume.

Exactly. I want to be able to duplicate this with headphones.

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikenet Isn't the SR-001/SR-003 supposed to have a fairly hefty bass presence?

Fairly hefty, yes. There's actual bass impact and a midbass hump more typically associated with dynamics. The bass is more pronounced than the SR-404's. You sacrifice treble extension, though. I'd say if you can go for SR-404's, then go ahead and go for them. There's very little else you can get that will match them, much less beat them, for the money.