Open-Back Dilemma: Amp Upgrade or New Headphones for Gaming & Music?

[ursine 122]

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for some advice on my next steps regarding my audio setup. I currently own the SJY Moonlight Marigold, but I’m not fully satisfied with them on my current setup, which consists of the iFi Zen Stack (Zen Can V3 and Zen DAC V2).

I’m debating whether I should upgrade my amp or sell the headphones and go for something else. Some options I’m considering are the Meze 109 Pro, Audeze LCD-2 Classic, Beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro, or the Focal Clear (if I can find them for a reasonable price here in Europe).

For reference, I also have the Aeon X Closed, and I’m very happy with them. However, I’m looking for an open-back headphone with a wider soundstage for a different experience.

My primary use case would be a mix of gaming and music listening (mainly rap, R&B, blues, and sevdah).

I’d love to hear your recommendations and thoughts on what might be the smarter move.

Thanks in advance!

 

[BrokeAudiophileMan]

Do you know what sound you're looking for? The four headphones you said you're considering have wildly different sound signatures. The Meze 109 is quite smooth, the LCD 2 is assertive yet not overbearing and has a generally balanced sound with potential for good punch. The Focal Clear is very attacky as are all Focal headphones. The DT1990 I don't recommend (or ANY beyerdynamic) generally at all.
I recently returned my Audeze MM-100 and also Meze 109. Tried them, didn't love them. Honestly, I know it's an old headphone, but given what you have (I have 2 zen stacks myself and a lot of cans) the two headphones I recommend the absolute most for that stack are Sennheiser HD600 or Sennheiser HD620S. The 600 will give a very balanced and admittedly "Bass-lite" sound that is absolutely delightful, full, and rich, and at nearly its absolute best on a zen stack via balanced output. The 620S, again if run balanced off the Zen Can, is absolutely delightful and reminiscent of the HD600 with much tighter and more aggressive bass. They are my two favourite headphones (And I own HE1000 so that says a lot). Neither the 600 or the 620S have world class sound stage. They are lacking there. They are delightful though. If soundstage is what you seek you might want to consider Hifiman XS or Ananda Stealth both of which will run great on your amp. Check the hifiman website if in the USA major sales rn. Cheers.

 

[ursine 122]

Do you know what sound you're looking for? The four headphones you said you're considering have wildly different sound signatures. The Meze 109 is quite smooth, the LCD 2 is assertive yet not overbearing and has a generally balanced sound with potential for good punch. The Focal Clear is very attacky as are all Focal headphones. The DT1990 I don't recommend (or ANY beyerdynamic) generally at all.
I recently returned my Audeze MM-100 and also Meze 109. Tried them, didn't love them. Honestly, I know it's an old headphone, but given what you have (I have 2 zen stacks myself and a lot of cans) the two headphones I recommend the absolute most for that stack are Sennheiser HD600 or Sennheiser HD620S. The 600 will give a very balanced and admittedly "Bass-lite" sound that is absolutely delightful, full, and rich, and at nearly its absolute best on a zen stack via balanced output. The 620S, again if run balanced off the Zen Can, is absolutely delightful and reminiscent of the HD600 with much tighter and more aggressive bass. They are my two favourite headphones (And I own HE1000 so that says a lot). Neither the 600 or the 620S have world class sound stage. They are lacking there. They are delightful though. If soundstage is what you seek you might want to consider Hifiman XS or Ananda Stealth both of which will run great on your amp. Check the hifiman website if in the USA major sales rn. Cheers.

I'm looking for warmer or darker-sounding open-back headphones with good bass extension and dynamics. I’ve been eyeing the Audeze LCD-2 Classic, primarily for their bass performance, and I’m not shy about using EQ to tailor the sound.

For context, I previously owned the Sennheiser HD 660S but sold them for the SJY Moonlight Marigold to try something new. While the Moonlight Marigold has potential, I’ve been a bit underwhelmed, which I suspect is due to amplification, as they’re very power-hungry.

I’d like to try a different sound profile from what I’m used to—AKG K701, Sennheiser HD 660S, and Aeon X Closed (which I still own and enjoy).

Additionally, I’m considering adding the Woo Audio WA7 Fireflies to my setup in the near future, as I’d like to explore tubes for a different listening experience.

 

[earmonger]

You'll get a much bigger change in sound with new headphones than with a new amp. To add to your headphone alternatives you should consider the ATH-R70X, my beloved open-back headphone.

They are weightlessly comfortable -- this matters far more than I knew when I got them after Sonys, Grados and Sennheisers. And they sound natural and transparent with a wide-open soundstage, which should be great for gaming.

They are not overly warm, but generally considered neutral with a slight bass boost. They claim frequency response down to 5Hz and you can EQ them easily if you do want to pump up the bass. But I find they don't need extra bass at all, even for the thuddiest hip-hop (try "The Way You Move" by OutKast for the low third bass note in the intro). The AKG K701 that you're considering are far less warm than the ATH-R70X.

They need power (470 ohm) but your amp has plenty.

They've been around a long time and there are a zillion reviews, some (of course) contradictory, but this one still sums it up for me.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/6/17535412/audio-technica-r70x-review-professional-headphones

I think the haters, like audiosciencereview. (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dio-technica-ath-r70x-review-headphone.32498/), didn't get a good seal for their measurements, precisely because the headphones are so damn comfortable -- not super clampy to fit a measurement device. He admits a bad seal in the review: "I could not get the top of the cups to seal." I'm baffled that he managed to find them uncomfortable too!

If you can order from Thomann.de, they probably have the best European price and a good return policy.

The cable is 3.5mm and not standard. But you can get a good, inexpensive balanced one to max out the power. Unlike the OEM Audio-Technica cable, which is interchangeable right and left (clever but nonstandard), this Lunashops one is marked left and right and works great:
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804183900981.html

Thomann (and probably Amazon) has a free trial period, and you should look at an unboxing video so you don't rip the package getting it open. But as soon as I heard them I knew they were keepers.

 

[conductor609]

Just to ask, are you using the balanced output of the zen can? The balanced output has like 4x the rated output of single ended, so I'm assuming you are but that would be a lot cheaper to try than new headphones if you aren't - new headphones are always going to be a way bigger change than a new amp or a new source are though if you just want something different.

The lcd-2 back when I owned them (I had the original pre-fazor lcd2 which I believe is more or less the same thing) had great bass extension, but I wouldn't have described them as having great dynamics - if that's what you're looking for I'd probably get, well, dynamic driver headphones instead of another pair of planars. I haven't heard the meze 109, but if you want something new and that's broadly what you're going for that is probably what I would pick from that list and they have the deepest bass extension from what I recall, but the clears should also fine if you don't care as much about deeper sub-bass.

 

[ursine 122]

You'll get a much bigger change in sound with new headphones than with a new amp. To add to your headphone alternatives you should consider the ATH-R70X, my beloved open-back headphone.

They are weightlessly comfortable -- this matters far more than I knew when I got them after Sonys, Grados and Sennheisers. And they sound natural and transparent with a wide-open soundstage, which should be great for gaming.

They are not overly warm, but generally considered neutral with a slight bass boost. They claim frequency response down to 5Hz and you can EQ them easily if you do want to pump up the bass. But I find they don't need extra bass at all, even for the thuddiest hip-hop (try "The Way You Move" by OutKast for the low third bass note in the intro). The AKG K701 that you're considering are far less warm than the ATH-R70X.

They need power (470 ohm) but your amp has plenty.

They've been around a long time and there are a zillion reviews, some (of course) contradictory, but this one still sums it up for me.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/6/17535412/audio-technica-r70x-review-professional-headphones

I think the haters, like audiosciencereview. (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dio-technica-ath-r70x-review-headphone.32498/), didn't get a good seal for their measurements, precisely because the headphones are so damn comfortable -- not super clampy to fit a measurement device. He admits a bad seal in the review: "I could not get the top of the cups to seal." I'm baffled that he managed to find them uncomfortable too!

If you can order from Thomann.de, they probably have the best European price and a good return policy.

The cable is 3.5mm and not standard. But you can get a good, inexpensive balanced one to max out the power. Unlike the OEM Audio-Technica cable, which is interchangeable right and left (clever but nonstandard), this Lunashops one is marked left and right and works great:
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804183900981.html

Thomann (and probably Amazon) has a free trial period, and you should look at an unboxing video so you don't rip the package getting it open. But as soon as I heard them I knew they were keepers.

Thank you so much for the detailed response! I’ll definitely check them out.

 

[ursine 122]

Just to ask, are you using the balanced output of the zen can? The balanced output has like 4x the rated output of single ended, so I'm assuming you are but that would be a lot cheaper to try than new headphones if you aren't - new headphones are always going to be a way bigger change than a new amp or a new source are though if you just want something different.

The lcd-2 back when I owned them (I had the original pre-fazor lcd2 which I believe is more or less the same thing) had great bass extension, but I wouldn't have described them as having great dynamics - if that's what you're looking for I'd probably get, well, dynamic driver headphones instead of another pair of planars. I haven't heard the meze 109, but if you want something new and that's broadly what you're going for that is probably what I would pick from that list and they have the deepest bass extension from what I recall, but the clears should also fine if you don't care as much about deeper sub-bass.

All my gear is equipped with 4.4mm TRRS, but the SJY Moonlight is just so hard to drive. Even at higher volumes, the bass distorts, and the overall sound feels dull. From reviews, these headphones are supposed to have a fuller sound.

Do you have any recommendations beyond the ones I’ve mentioned? I’m open to any ideas. I’m currently selling the SJY to help finance a new pair!

 

[m-i-c-k-e-y]

If i am satisied with my current setup, if it's me, will look for other else like cleaner power (lps or since you have an ifi stack, those ifi-power ones) or cleaner source (a ddc like Douk Audio U2 Pro or a USB Reclock/Regen).

 

[BrokeAudiophileMan]

I'm looking for warmer or darker-sounding open-back headphones with good bass extension and dynamics. I’ve been eyeing the Audeze LCD-2 Classic, primarily for their bass performance, and I’m not shy about using EQ to tailor the sound.

For context, I previously owned the Sennheiser HD 660S but sold them for the SJY Moonlight Marigold to try something new. While the Moonlight Marigold has potential, I’ve been a bit underwhelmed, which I suspect is due to amplification, as they’re very power-hungry.

I’d like to try a different sound profile from what I’m used to—AKG K701, Sennheiser HD 660S, and Aeon X Closed (which I still own and enjoy).

Additionally, I’m considering adding the Woo Audio WA7 Fireflies to my setup in the near future, as I’d like to explore tubes for a different listening experience.

I'm going to say the same thing earmonger said- get the AudioTechnica ATHR70X. I have a pair and they're fantastic. Great bass, warm, a little dark. They are picky about amplification and I've gotten the best results from my Schiit Magni but you can get one of those from the schiit website in the USA for $100 or $189 with DAC module. Terrific little unit and ideal with the R70X.

 

[earmonger]

I'm going to say the same thing earmonger said- get the AudioTechnica ATHR70X. I have a pair and they're fantastic. Great bass, warm, a little dark. They are picky about amplification and I've gotten the best results from my Schiit Magni but you can get one of those from the schiit website in the USA for $100 or $189 with DAC module. Terrific little unit and ideal with the R70X.

I've used them with Schiit Magni 3, Monolith Liquid Spark (single-ended) and IBasso DC04 (balanced). @ursine 122 has iCan units that should be able to handle them too.

 

[ursine 122]

I am currently selling my SJY Moonlights to fund a pair of Audio-Technica headphones. After researching, I believe they would be a perfect fit for me, especially the R70X Refine model. However, sourcing them from Apos will be challenging, as they’re difficult to find in Europe.

Thank you for your advice

 

[earmonger]

The Refine were a (very) limited edition that sold out. There's contact info on the Apos page in case they reissue them.
https://apos.audio/products/apos-x-audio-technica-ath-r70x-refine-headphone

No firsthand experience with them, but it does seem like the changes were minor. If re-sellers have them at higher prices than the original, I wouldn't bother. The originals are less blingy but widely admired.

 

[iqmusic]

Do you know what sound you're looking for? The four headphones you said you're considering have wildly different sound signatures. The Meze 109 is quite smooth, the LCD 2 is assertive yet not overbearing and has a generally balanced sound with potential for good punch. The Focal Clear is very attacky as are all Focal headphones. The DT1990 I don't recommend (or ANY beyerdynamic) generally at all.
I recently returned my Audeze MM-100 and also Meze 109. Tried them, didn't love them. Honestly, I know it's an old headphone, but given what you have (I have 2 zen stacks myself and a lot of cans) the two headphones I recommend the absolute most for that stack are Sennheiser HD600 or Sennheiser HD620S. The 600 will give a very balanced and admittedly "Bass-lite" sound that is absolutely delightful, full, and rich, and at nearly its absolute best on a zen stack via balanced output. The 620S, again if run balanced off the Zen Can, is absolutely delightful and reminiscent of the HD600 with much tighter and more aggressive bass. They are my two favourite headphones (And I own HE1000 so that says a lot). Neither the 600 or the 620S have world class sound stage. They are lacking there. They are delightful though. If soundstage is what you seek you might want to consider Hifiman XS or Ananda Stealth both of which will run great on your amp. Check the hifiman website if in the USA major sales rn. Cheers.

@BrokeAudiophileMan - I have a pair of Hifiman Edition XS and just now bought IFI Zen Can v3 and for source a WIIM mini. I have a custom balanced cable forgot who I bought it for. My musical tastes are in trance, blues, and heavy metal. Not having experienced anything yet, do you think, I have to consider at least one other pair of cans for this setup? I am planning to use the IFI Silent 5v power supply I bought for another amp setup.

 

[BrokeAudiophileMan]

@BrokeAudiophileMan - I have a pair of Hifiman Edition XS and just now bought IFI Zen Can v3 and for source a WIIM mini. I have a custom balanced cable forgot who I bought it for. My musical tastes are in trance, blues, and heavy metal. Not having experienced anything yet, do you think, I have to consider at least one other pair of cans for this setup? I am planning to use the IFI Silent 5v power supply I bought for another amp setup.

What I can tell you is that before I got my Zen Dac 3 I got my Zen Amp 3. I tried it with a fairly costly Gustard X16 DAC, and with a Fiio K11 R2R. It was good, but there was no magic. Only with the iFi DAC do they really come alive. Another thing that massively helps the zen amps if you're running USB to them is to get an audioquest jitterbug (The new one is called jitterbug FMJ they're on amazon. About $70 USD). It plugs into your PC usb port then the cable for the DAC plugs into that. Cleans up the signal hugely. Makes sound much more transparent. I have both a Zen Dac Air in the basement with a Zen amp (version 1) and upstairs I have the Zen Dac 3 and Zen Amp 3. Here in Canada the Zen Dac Air I've seen as low as $120 on Amazon and it's $160 everyday. The Zen Dac 3 on the other hand is $350. There is NOT a big difference in sound quality at all, and I'd wager the Zen Amp 3 will sound great with the Zen Dac Air or with an earlier version full fat zen dac V1 or V2 which go for $200 here in Canada. The full fat DAC gives you the ability to run balanced out to the amp with a 4.4mm to 4.4mm which tightens up the sound a bit. Hope that helps. Zen amp sounds delightful with Zen amp, and GOOD with other amps. No comparison though they're made to be together.

 

[iqmusic]

What I can tell you is that before I got my Zen Dac 3 I got my Zen Amp 3. I tried it with a fairly costly Gustard X16 DAC, and with a Fiio K11 R2R. It was good, but there was no magic. Only with the iFi DAC do they really come alive. Another thing that massively helps the zen amps if you're running USB to them is to get an audioquest jitterbug (The new one is called jitterbug FMJ they're on amazon. About $70 USD). It plugs into your PC usb port then the cable for the DAC plugs into that. Cleans up the signal hugely. Makes sound much more transparent. I have both a Zen Dac Air in the basement with a Zen amp (version 1) and upstairs I have the Zen Dac 3 and Zen Amp 3. Here in Canada the Zen Dac Air I've seen as low as $120 on Amazon and it's $160 everyday. The Zen Dac 3 on the other hand is $350. There is NOT a big difference in sound quality at all, and I'd wager the Zen Amp 3 will sound great with the Zen Dac Air or with an earlier version full fat zen dac V1 or V2 which go for $200 here in Canada. The full fat DAC gives you the ability to run balanced out to the amp with a 4.4mm to 4.4mm which tightens up the sound a bit. Hope that helps. Zen amp sounds delightful with Zen amp, and GOOD with other amps. No comparison though they're made to be together.

I am planning to use a FiiO D3 Taishan that is lying around. I loved that small thing before I bought a DAC Magic Plus. I look to pair up with Zen. Thank you for your advice.