Noise issue with Pro-Ject Debut III USB turntable

[john mcguirk]

I am experiencing some serious noise issues with a new Debut III with the built-in phono stage. It's a hiss that is inaudible when my headphone amp (Fournier DAC-2)'s volume level is at or under 9 o'clock. Anything above that makes the output unbearable to listen to. I think it's a grounding issue. I have tried every single combination of interconnect, grounding point, and plug that I can think of. For reference, I am grounding the Debut III to a screw on the DAC-2's chassis, which I have been assured is the correct technique. To be honest it doesn't make a lick of a difference if I even use a grounding cable or not.
 
See the below email I sent to the turntable's seller for more information:

 

I am having severe noise issues with my Pro-Ject Debut III which I purchased from you about one week ago. With the Debut III's motor off, there is a "hiss" sound -- indicative of a grounding issue, in my opinion -- which only worsens as the amplifier's volume level is increased. I understand that turntable phono stages can be noisy but the Debut III seems extreme. The hissing is much louder when the tonearm is positioned over the platter than when in its rest.

 

I set up the Debut III exactly as described in them manual with a proper counterweight force for the supplied cartridge and the anti-skate weight is installed. I have tried using both the supplied interconnect cables and my own, higher-quality cables with the player. I am connecting the Debut III to a headphone amplifier. The amplifier does not have a grounding terminal, so the included grounding cable was stripped on one end, formed into a noose, and wrapped around one of the amplifier's chassis screws. (I have talked with the amplifier manufacturer to ensure that this is the correct technique.) The amplifier is not noisy with other input sources, even using the same interconnect cables. I have tried plugging both the turntable and amplifier into plugs in other rooms within my house and I have even tested it used a Furman power conditioner.

 
I didn't mention that I also tried the Debut III with a FiiO E9 I have laying around with the same issues.
 
To be honest, I am so disappointed with the Debut III's quality that I am ready to return it and buy a used table. The OM5 picks up so much surface noise, even on brand-new pressings.
 
Does anyone have any other suggestions to help with this issue before I just send it back and eat a 15 percent restocking fee?
 
Thanks!

 

[sk3383]

Sounds like a ground loop issue. Does your power cord on the Pro-Ject Debut III have a ground pin? You first need to eliminate other items that are plugged into the same breaker, such as florescent lights, fridge, freezer, computer.
 
What I would do is trying to make the Pro-Ject turntable and FiiO and/or Fournier DAC-2 the only items plugged in. Unplug everything else thats on that breaker. You could also try a cheater plug but I do not recommend it as a long term fix, but it would at least pin point the problem.
 
 

 

[john mcguirk]

The Project Debut III is a two-pronger. The Fournier uses a grounded plug and the E9 is ungrounded.
 
I tried plugs in two different rooms (the kitchen AUX circuit for toasters and so forth... the oven and fridge have their own circuits, and my bedroom's circuit with the computer and everything else unplugged). I will dig a little further in my room but if the hissing is happening in multiple circuits then it seems like there may be a larger issue. The wiring is circa 2007, it's an old house but a big fire called for a complete re-wire. The house is grounded via a ground pin.
 
I tried a cheater plug for the Fournier and it made no difference. I read a tip about flip-flopping the direction of ungrounded power bricks, it also made no difference.
 
I should mention that the hiss goes away when the motor is on, but it re-appears when the tonearm is situated over the metal platter.

 

[sk3383]

 
Quote:

The Project Debut III is a two-pronger. The Fournier uses a grounded plug and the E9 is ungrounded.
 
I tried plugs in two different rooms (the kitchen AUX circuit for toasters and so forth... the oven and fridge have their own circuits, and my bedroom's circuit with the computer and everything else unplugged). I will dig a little further in my room but if the hissing is happening in multiple circuits then it seems like there may be a larger issue. The wiring is circa 2007, it's an old house but a big fire called for a complete re-wire. The house is grounded via a ground pin.
 
I tried a cheater plug for the Fournier and it made no difference. I read a tip about flip-flopping the direction of ungrounded power bricks, it also made no difference.
 
I should mention that the hiss goes away when the motor is on, but it re-appears when the tonearm is situated over the metal platter.

Thanks for the detailed response. Sounds like you have exhuasted the troubleshooting. All signs point to a poor or inadequate phono stage. I would return the table and get the standard version without the built in phono stage. An outboard phono stage might resolve the issue.
 
I would be weary of any built in USB phono section, those things are usually crap.
 
The table itself is a great entry level unit, provides great value. I have an Pro-Ject table and have been very happy with its performance. Its too bad your experience hasn't been that great.
 

 

[john mcguirk]

Quote:

 


Thanks for the detailed response. Sounds like you have exhuasted the troubleshooting. All signs point to a poor or inadequate phono stage. I would return the table and get the standard version without the built in phono stage. An outboard phono stage might resolve the issue.
 
I would be weary of any built in USB phono section, those things are usually crap.
 
The table itself is a great entry level unit, provides great value. I have an Pro-Ject table and have been very happy with its performance. Its too bad your experience hasn't been that great.
 

It definitely sounds like there is an issue with the TT. I picked the USB version because the built-in phono stage is apparently the same circuitry as Pro-ject's external phono preamp.
 
I will be talking to the company that sold it to me tomorrow. They'll probably ask me the same questions. Ultimately I would be happy to get an RMA authorization and return the unit without suffering the 15 percent restocking fee.
 

 

[falis]

I have a similar issue with my Debut III that does not have an internal preamp.  But only when I wank the amp way up towards 3 o'clock or so.  Still, it's annoying now and then.  And I've tried all kinds of variations for eliminating ground loops.  If they come up with any great ideas, let us know.
 
- Ed

 

[john mcguirk]

The hum was audible starting at 9 o'clock -- totally ridiculous. The company I bought it from agreed to accept it back and "check it out." Since it's so variable a situation it is completely possible that they won't experience the same issues I am having, or it is possible that the turntable is actually defective.
 
The company won't give me cash back, only credit (DOH!), so I expect to exchange the TT for a non-USB version and also purchase a Phono Box. I'm going to fight the 15 percent restocking fee if they determine the unit isn't defective, but I might have to eat that money.

 

[john mcguirk]

It got back to the store today. They said they didn't notice anything wrong but they're "keeping it another day to run more tests." They're wasting labor costs when they can just send that unit back to Pro-ject and give me a new one. Depending on their conclusions tomorrow I may insist a new unit, but they have been quite agreeable, so I feel bad being pushy. For all I know my entire house's wiring could be a giant cluster, in which case I may need to just suck it up and use an isolating transformer.

 

[sk3383]

John,
 
If they insist there is nothing wrong then you should take your headphone amp there to verify the noise issue at their location. Dont feel bad, you are spending your hard earned money and you should be a satisfied customer. Thats the nature of the business.
 
 
Regards,
 
Shawn

 

[john mcguirk]

Quote:

John,
 
If they insist there is nothing wrong then you should take your headphone amp there to verify the noise issue at their location. Dont feel bad, you are spending your hard earned money and you should be a satisfied customer. Thats the nature of the business.
 
 
Regards,
 
Shawn

The turntable was ordered online (there are no Pro-ject dealers here) so getting it to the shop involved shipping. Not a big deal though. They called me today and assured it makes no noise with 3 of their systems, so it's back here to troubleshoot further. My next step is to bring the entire ensemble to a friend's and try it with another electricity source.
 

 

[john mcguirk]

I got it back yesterday and there was no change -- the shop said they had no problems with their systems. I suppose there is some issue with my house's power supply. I've installed a isolation transformer and the hum is a lot less noticeable, which will do for now.
 
E: Is it possible to bypass the built-in preamp? I would be interested in trying the TT with an external phono stage.

 

[sk3383]

No I do not believe there is a way to bypass the built in phono stage. Try the turntable and amp in another house, friend or familys place to confirm.

 

[john mcguirk]

That's on my to-do list for later this week.
 
From what I understand (I'm new to all of this) in standard turntables the wires connected to the headshell/cartridge are directly connected to the RCA jacks. It seems that I could simply modify the TT and perform this myself, but it would be a big change. It'd be a lot more wise, I think, to simply sell the Debut III and take the $100 loss as a "stupid tax."

 

[sk3383]

John,
 
Better idea would be to instead of losing out $100 in a "stupid tax", why dont you just ask the online dealer if you can trade up. The Pro-Ject RPM 1.3 would be ideal.
 
I really enjoy mine, recently I have been chatting with my local audio shops, including the one where I purchased my table from. Amongst the many conversations, I asked them what would be the next logical turntable upgrade would be for me. Both shops gave me very similar advice, informing me that there will not be a significant improvement until I purchased a deck in the $2500+ region. They both said I would be wasting time buying a table in the $1000-1500 area, stating that I would not be able to hear a noticeable increase in performance over my RPM 1.3 ...... suggesting to wait until I can purchase something at the level of Michell Gyro SE, Avid Diva II, VPI Scout, Kuzma Stabi S, Transrotor Darkstar or ZET 1, etc.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

[john mcguirk]

The retailer is not interested in doing any more business with me. They just said, "sorry... we tried it and can't find any issues" and sent it back. I will obviously not be doing business with them in the future. I don't have a car at the moment so local HiFi shops are a no-go.
 
I still haven't tested the TT at a relative's house, but I'm getting there. From what I've been reading my headphone amp boosts the gain like crazy -- music is painfully loud at 7 o'clock with my RS-2s. I never need to boost the volume to the point where the system hums, so I suppose I should stop worrying about it. I installed a 2M RED and the Acryl-it platter, it sounds great.