[bundee1]

The Harmon Kardon avr 520 I bought died after 2 weeks, so I exchanged it with a Yamaha RXV1000. JandR salesman talked me into getting the Yamaha and after reading the reviews for it I caved in. I actually prefer the sound of HK and PSB but I cant put up with the reliability issues. The Yamaha is also easier to use and has a better remote.

 

[kartik]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sweet Spot Ah yes...the Outlaw. I too have read good things about it. And if it had Dolby Pro Logic ll etc...

It is so strange that we humans have stereophonic hearing (i.e. Two ears, in the non-mutant variety) and yet we crave more than two channels. Stereo is my nirvana, the day my maker upgrades me to 5.1 (or 7.1 for that matter) hearing, I'll consider upgrading my amplifier. A really good stereo set up can be more rewarding sonically than the best multi-channel gizmo.

 

[princeclassic]

THX...is pretty meaningless to me...there is the THX 7.1 thing...but most people agree that H/K's logic 7 sounds much better (i'm not sure if the logic 7 in the 325 can be applied to DD or DTS...im pretty sure it can be in the 525 just like in the amazing lexicon pre/pros)

but, there is no 7.1 format....you can't buy any movie or music that are encoded in 7.1 as far as i know

DTS ES Discrete is the only true 6.1 format...

so...i don't see the point in 7.1

i've got a yamaha htr-5440, it's served pretty me quite well so far, but i'm much more impressed with the sound out of H/Ks receivers

kartik,

i'm not a fan of multichannel music....but i think multichannel movies can make for a great experience...

 

[Sweet Spot]

Quote:

It is so strange that we humans have stereophonic hearing (i.e. Two ears, in the non-mutant variety) and yet we crave more than two channels. Stereo is my nirvana, the day my maker upgrades me to 5.1 (or 7.1 for that matter) hearing, I'll consider upgrading my amplifier. A really good stereo set up can be more rewarding sonically than the best multi-channel gizmo.

Yeah, yeah. I getcha'. However, I started this thread based upon my buying a new DVD player, and wanting to be able to get the most out ot it..while still maintaining the beauty that is stereo for music. So you see, your plans are foiled AGAIN ! MWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!

But seriously, that's what I want. A great movie experience and a music experience to match it when doing CD's etc...

Prince...Hmm, yeah. I hear that too. (the 7.1 issue) When THX was first popping out on MM systems, I argued incessantly that it was nothing but a gimick to generate money for George Lucas, which I actually still believe. THX was really nothing but a spec sheet for movie theater owners who had to comply with Lucas' Arts LTD. to ensure that their speaker positioning was correct and that the speakers matched the frequency range agreed upon for proper listening as per Lucas' "vision".

However, with the inception of more and more 7.1 systems, having the 2 side surrounds may actually enhance the quality/effects of a movie which a studio prepared as such.... So basically, I just want to make sure that I have the best I can for my money before what I buy becomes out dated too quickly. Pretty reasonable no ?

So IYO, you'd first go with H/K, then Yamaha and then Marantz eh?

Anyone eles ?

 

[kartik]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sweet Spot Yeah, yeah. I getcha'. However, I started this thread based upon my buying a new DVD player, and wanting to be able to get the most out ot it..while still maintaining the beauty that is stereo for music. So you see, your plans are foiled AGAIN ! MWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!! But seriously, that's what I want. A great movie experience and a music experience to match it when doing CD's etc... Prince...Hmm, yeah. I hear that too. (the 7.1 issue) When THX was first popping out on MM systems, I argued incessantly that it was nothing but a gimick to generate money for George Lucas, which I actually still believe. THX was really nothing but a spec sheet for movie theater owners who had to comply with Lucas' Arts LTD. to ensure that their speaker positioning was correct and that the speakers matched the frequency range agreed upon for proper listening as per Lucas' "vision". However, with the inception of more and more 7.1 systems, having the 2 side surrounds may actually enhance the quality/effects of a movie which a studio prepared as such.... So basically, I just want to make sure that I have the best I can for my money before what I buy becomes out dated too quickly. Pretty reasonable no ? So IYO, you'd first go with H/K, then Yamaha and then Marantz eh? Anyone eles ?

Irrespective of the mode of entertainment it is the spirit of entertainment that I was alluding to. It is not necessary to know where the violin is playing as long as it is a stardivarius and it sounds beautiful. The same for movies. If the movie's plot is gripping enough, the ambience is moot.
Nevertheless, since you want the artificial environment of a digital surround reproduction, your point is well taken. The problem with a 7.1 system is that not only are there additional channels but also the additional hardware i.e. speakers, cables that go with it. If two additional speakers make a big difference, then why not 8 or ten additional speakers. The best situation would then be being surrounded by millions of point sources powered by a giant amp with a DVD containing all those tracks, and may be even a hologram. If you must corrupt the sound with additional processing, 5+1 channels seems enough.
The rest is overkill.

 

[Sweet Spot]

Quote:

It is not necessary to know where the violin is playing as long as it is a stardivarius and it sounds beautiful. The same for movies. If the movie's plot is gripping enough, the ambience is moot.

Some interesting points you bring up, and here's one of them. On this first quote, I'll have to respectively disagree with you. Not totally, but mostly. I think that we can both agree if an instrument sounds like crap, no amount of processing in the world will make up for that. Ok. However, soundstage IS important to me, and I'm sure to alot of other people. Being a musician, and composer, it's always very nice to be able to get an overall impression of each instrument or section that is playing...and the placement is sometimes very key in that it can tell you where and when an event is taking place at any given time.

Now tell me something. If you went to the movies and for some reason only the center channel was working, do you think you would enjoy yourself ? Me thinks not, and if you say yes you're either fishing for an argument or you are just extremely not human. Perhaps not effects so much, but music, brings out emotions that could not otherwise be wrentched by dialogue and plot line (no matter how gripping) alone.

Special effects these days are just as much a part of a movie (unfortunately..but sometimes in a cool way) as dialogue. **** man...if not for sound effects and computer graphics, the last 2 star wars movies would have died the same day of their releases !!

And if you think I'm being sarcastic, I'm not. Neither of those movies were compelling, had a decent story line or even decent character development. It was the sound effects and graphics which saved it all !

Quote:

If two additional speakers make a big difference, then why not 8 or ten additional speakers. The best situation would then be being surrounded by millions of point sources powered by a giant amp with a DVD containing all those tracks, and may be even a hologram. If you must corrupt the sound with additional processing, 5+1 channels seems enough.

Yes..why NOT 8 or 10 indeed ?! Do you know how the Dolby Digital studios test tracks and make special effects? Recently even, as seen on that lame ass show, Tech TV, they went into those studios which house 28 (or was it 24) monitors in a complete 360 degree area, including some hanging from the cieiling. The point of that is to have certain things represented as close to real as possible. A good example would be an airplane taking off or landing. Imagine how that would sound on such a set up. Probably more real than any 5.1 set up eh?

I guess that's my point. If you had a ranch, and called it the..I dunno ...say the Skywalker ranch, wouldn't you attempt something that cool ? I'm not saying it's necessary, but I'm sure it beats the crap out of anything we can even begin to salavate over.

And again, music does not take a back seat (see above) in my world, I'm simply attempting to have the best of both worlds, and that includes a proper movie going experience. (Jiffy pop helps)

 

[kartik]

I don't disagree with the points you make but I am just wondering about the practicality of the whole thing. Isn't 24 monitors a little excessive. It is probably cheaper at that point to just pay someone to play live music for you.

The other point you raised about SFX is well taken. Nonetheless the original Star Wars (A New Hope), was gripping enough without the newer audio SFX (although it was ahead of its time in Audio SFX). I mean, even silent movies can be exciting, how much emphasis is necessary on this in a home system. For instance, Gigli would be 5.1 times worse on a dolby digital system.

Nevertheless, unless the software changes from a fixed number of channels to unlimited or user assigned number of channels, you will be entering a fruitless race to obsoloscence.

 

[princeclassic]

yes, i'd say H/K makes the best receivers for the money

of course...there are very expensive models from Denon, Rotel, Marantz, and Pioneer that are just stacked with features...but at the price that these models land at...you might as well just get an Outlaw or Anthem pre/pro and an Outlaw, Anthem, or Sherbourn amp. or whatever other pre/pro or amp combo you'd like...

it's like spending a vast amount on an integrated amp when you could just pick up a better seperate pre-amp and amp

 

[Sweet Spot]

Quote:

For instance, Gigli would be 5.1 times worse on a dolby digital system.

ROFLMAO !! Oh that's just too true. I can't stop laughing..thanks, I needed that since I just got home from work ...crap night. No one's comming out cause of the previous 2 nights (blackout thingy).

Anyway, I see your point of course. But I wasn't arguing whether or not that many monitors was practical...just showing the applications. I guess that 5.1 IS enough though. However, what I was thinking was that since there are models with THX at the price level I'm at, I may as well just go for the gusto.

Quote:

it's like spending a vast amount on an integrated amp when you could just pick up a better seperate pre-amp and amp

I totally hear that ....But at the price range I'm at, I don't think that's a feasable thing right now. I mean, how much more money are we talking if I was to go the Pre amp, pro route ?

 

[princeclassic]

the outlaw 950 pre/pro and outlaw 7100 (7 channel x 100 watt) amp are $1600 as a package.

don't feel obligated to get THX cert...it doesn't mean it's a better product....you're just paying for that little stamp on your receiver....

 

[Sweet Spot]

Hmm...I posted a reply but it didn't make it..weird. Basically, it was this:

Quote:

don't feel obligated to get THX cert...it doesn't mean it's a better product....you're just paying for that little stamp on your receiver....

Totally understood. I always thought that THX was a crock, as stated in a post above somewhere.

I just took a look at that Outlaw combo package, and I'm really impressed. Seems like an extraordinary deal for seperates. I may actually seriously consider going that route. I'm not a bells a whistles kind of guy, but I want to make sure I'm getting what I need. And that pre/pro seems to have the DD 2 and Neo surround fields. Not to mention 7 channel stereo. Um, at that price range, are there other good options as well (in the seperate category that is) ?

And thank you very much for all of your thoughts and input. You're very helpful.

Doug

 

[princeclassic]

i'm not aware of a pre/pro that costs less than the outlaw 950. even finding a used pre/pro better than the 950 for its price would be tough.

but, you might be able to pick up a used 5 channel amp for less than the price of the 7 channel outlaw amp if you check out audiogon. then you could start off with a 5 channel system, and if you ever felt the need to upgrade to 7 channels you could just add a 2 channel amp. anthem, sherbourn, ATI, outlaw, or parasound