[Loftprojection]

Hello, I’m not versed very much in the deep technicalities of audio components and not a particular interested either! Hahaha.

However here is my question, please don’t throw me rocks if it is a stupid question or setup! Haha

I use a Macbook with Audirvana as a source with USB-C output. However my DAC is an old MHDT Paradisea that does not have USB input so I got a USBC to HDMI converter feeding a HDMI to optical converter (usually used for audio/video home cinema conversions) and this optical out is feeding my Paradisea DAC. (PS. Amp is a Unison Research SH tube amp and headphones are Meze Empyrean, I love smooth lush sound obviously!)

It gives me quite a good sound when I listen to very well recorded jazz ripped to flac CDs (I don’t have hi-rez music). Not so good though with lesser recorded stuff, like old progressive rock. I also have a portable Sony Zx507 Walkman that upsamples and is all in the digital world (dac/amp) and it’s sound seems less impacted by differences in album recordings than my desktop setup which can sound quite crappy on some recordings.

So I am wondering if my 2 « conversion dongles » that sit between my Macbook and my DAC are introducing a lot of crap in the signal path and I would really benefit from having a fully USB compatible receptor DAC or if these conversion dongles effect is negligeable and bottom line I’d benefit quite a bit more by having an all in one source device that stays in the digital world from start to end of the chain.

Many thanks for any info you can share.

 

[bluecar]

Hello, I’m not versed very much in the deep technicalities of audio components and not a particular interested either! Hahaha.

However here is my question, please don’t throw me rocks if it is a stupid question or setup! Haha

I use a Macbook with Audirvana as a source with USB-C output. However my DAC is an old MHDT Paradisea that does not have USB input so I got a USBC to HDMI converter feeding a HDMI to optical converter (usually used for audio/video home cinema conversions) and this optical out is feeding my Paradisea DAC. (PS. Amp is a Unison Research SH tube amp and headphones are Meze Empyrean, I love smooth lush sound obviously!)

It gives me quite a good sound when I listen to very well recorded jazz ripped to flac CDs (I don’t have hi-rez music). Not so good though with lesser recorded stuff, like old progressive rock. I also have a portable Sony Zx507 Walkman that upsamples and is all in the digital world (dac/amp) and it’s sound seems less impacted by differences in album recordings than my desktop setup which can sound quite crappy on some recordings.

So I am wondering if my 2 « conversion dongles » that sit between my Macbook and my DAC are introducing a lot of crap in the signal path and I would really benefit from having a fully USB compatible receptor DAC or if these conversion dongles effect is negligeable and bottom line I’d benefit quite a bit more by having an all in one source device that stays in the digital world from start to end of the chain.

Many thanks for any info you can share.

two thoughts....

1. The USB out of any mac is pretty grubby to start with - lots of non-signal noise, and not a particularly well-clocked output for the type of stream used for audio applications (the clock info embedded in the USB stream will be less 'correct' than that generated from a good quality network bridge) . That's probably the main culprit for why more complex, or less well-mastered mixes sound shabby, although your converters may be compounding it a little. There are some very good computer solutions for generating high-quality USB/SPDIF streams - none of them come out of a standard laptop A dedicated streamer would be a big step-change - no need to go nuts on $$$- there's plenty of choice for low-cost network bridge/streamers and they are almost all a good step up from a stock laptop.

2. If you have an older Macbook, you may well find that if you get a 3.5mm optical adapter (belkin sell these), you can connect via the headphone port on the mac/macbook (there was, up to a couple of years ago, a 96/24 capable optical port integrated into the headphone port) - may help you knock out a few links..

Don't get me wrong, software like Audirvana, Fidelizer and are brilliant, and when run on expertly configured windows or Linux machines (bought, or self-built), they can sound fantastic, but on a stock laptop, the software is always fighting against circuitry and interfaces that are designed around optimal compute functionality, not high-performance digital audio.

 

[Loftprojection]

two thoughts....

1. The USB out of any mac is pretty grubby to start with - lots of non-signal noise, and not a particularly well-clocked output for the type of stream used for audio applications (the clock info embedded in the USB stream will be less 'correct' than that generated from a good quality network bridge) . That's probably the main culprit for why more complex, or less well-mastered mixes sound shabby, although your converters may be compounding it a little. There are some very good computer solutions for generating high-quality USB/SPDIF streams - none of them come out of a standard laptop A dedicated streamer would be a big step-change - no need to go nuts on $$$- there's plenty of choice for low-cost network bridge/streamers and they are almost all a good step up from a stock laptop.

2. If you have an older Macbook, you may well find that if you get a 3.5mm optical adapter (belkin sell these), you can connect via the headphone port on the mac/macbook (there was, up to a couple of years ago, a 96/24 capable optical port integrated into the headphone port) - may help you knock out a few links..

Don't get me wrong, software like Audirvana, Fidelizer and are brilliant, and when run on expertly configured windows or Linux machines (bought, or self-built), they can sound fantastic, but on a stock laptop, the software is always fighting against circuitry and interfaces that are designed around optimal compute functionality, not high-performance digital audio.

Hello, many thanks. My Macbook Pro doesn’t have the optical output unfortunately. I didn’t know the USB out of the Macbook was such crap so if I read you correctly, do you think temporarily I‘d be even better off using the optical out of my AppleTV instead of the Macbook?

Also, from what you are saying it would be a waste of money to buy a new USB DAC and feed it via the USB of the Macbook, I’d be better off to look at either a dedicated streamer or even one that has a nice DAC built in to save on a box.

 

[bluecar]

Hello, many thanks. My Macbook Pro doesn’t have the optical output unfortunately. I didn’t know the USB out of the Macbook was such crap so if I read you correctly, do you think temporarily I‘d be even better off using the optical out of my AppleTV instead of the Macbook?

Also, from what you are saying it would be a waste of money to buy a new USB DAC and feed it via the USB of the Macbook, I’d be better off to look at either a dedicated streamer or even one that has a nice DAC built in to save on a box.

That is a shame about the mac optical - it was a good solution.

The optical out form your Apple TV may be better, but still wont overcome the signal generation issue - worth a try though.

A dedicated streamer, with or without DAC would be a nice step up for you compared to any SPDF/USB created from non-customised computing - there are lots of great options at very reasonable prices. Units like the Bluesound Node 2i provide a pretty decent bridge and DAC, and lots of easy control options - step up a bit and there are units like the Lindemann Limetree Network - lots to choose from in the combined Bridge/DAC class.......or you can make a low-cost unit, base don a Raspberry Pi for very little outlay (see Darko's vid for details - https://darko.audio/2020/01/raspberry-pi-audio-streaming-101/

Good luck in the journey.....

 

[sajunky]

So I am wondering if my 2 « conversion dongles » that sit between my Macbook and my DAC are introducing a lot of crap in the signal path and I would really benefit from having a fully USB compatible receptor DAC or if these conversion dongles effect is negligeable and bottom line I’d benefit quite a bit more by having an all in one source device that stays in the digital world from start to end of the chain.

I don't know what this HDMI dongle does, it is a true HDMI or I2S interface using HDMI connector and cable. It doesn't matter, even it is I2S, the next conversion can be harmful. There are specialised DDC devices for jitter free clock synchronisation around $400, see below. They take USB input among other digital inputs and deliver stable clock to a DAC with galvanic isolation. If your DAC has an input for the external clock, it is very helping, as clocks of a DDC and a DAC can be synchronised with the same frequency, eliminating jitter of the S/PDIF receiver. I suggest to use DDC, one of the best is Adudio GD DI-20. Have a look in DI-20 thread, it receives good user feedback.

USB has actually a special type of asynchronous transmision where a sink (receiving) device is able to synchronise speed of the transmission. This is the best method and most current USB receivers implementations are capable, but application must be designed to use it. Audirvana for MAC can invoke this mode, I don't know about other applications, by example Roon for Windows can, but it is not enabled by default. In other words, user must check configuration of the player to get the best results.

 

[Loftprojection]

Thanks guys. Did some tests and it is not uge improvement but using the Macbook wifi to AppleTV optical out is definitely better than using Macbook USB-C out to « USBC->HDMI dongle converter » then to « HDMI->HDMI/Optical dongle converter« and finally to my DAC! These two signal converters seem to be introducing a certain level of crap in the signal! Hahaha

That said one other interesting find is that using Audirvana on the Macbook generates way better sound than using the Music app (iTunes), and that is by making sure I’m using the same local music file located on the Macbook drive. So Audirvana seems to be doing good stuff with the digital signal while transfering it wifi to the AppleTV and that is suprising. I would have tought sending digital files over wifi would not make any difference, that it’s the AppleTV then the DAC that would have « played » with the signal, not the software on the Macbook that is transfering it to the AppleTV! Well probably to some of you this all makes perfect sense.

So now that all this is figured out, I still need to decide what is my next move and I see 3 options:

1- buy a cheap « streamer » that has no DAC in a price bracket of $200-300 that would replace the AppleTV and feed my DAC with optical, not sure that option would generate much improvement.

2- buy option 1 plus an upgraded DAC, my choice would definitely be the MHDT Orchid because I’m a sucker for lush and refined analog sound

3- Buy a « streamer/DAC » in the $1000-1500 price bracket, I’ve checked a bit and the Cambridge CNX v2 is interesting, it has Wolfson DACs and I remember CD players with Wolfson had a sound signature I much prefer to Sabre chips. My headphone amp has a Sabre chip DAC built in and this is not has nice as the sound I get from my old MHDT DAC.

I think I have first class headphones (Meze Empyrean) and amp (Unison Research SH) but I now realize I haven’t invested much in the « source » part of my sound which maybe a mistake, I think my DAC is quite good even though it’s old and cheap (MHDT Paradisea) but probably not up to par with what I could get by investing a bit.

Any comments or suggestions are appreciated, thanks a lot.