Is higher or lower output impedance better?

[clouden]

So I read on NwAvGuy's blog:

 All you really need to know is most headphones work best when the output impedance is less than 1/8th the headphone impedance. 

This statement seems to imply that lower output impedance on amps is better.
 
One of my acquaintances told me that a high impedance headphone must be paired with a high output impedance headphone amplifier, and he pointed to the Beyerdynamic T1 and A1 as an example of a perfectly matched pair. This caused me some confusion because I thought that low output impedance in headphone amplifiers is important. Does he have any idea what he is talking about?
 
Lastly, said acquaintance is trying to sell me his Beyerdynamic T1 at a very good price, but I only ever had entry level gear. He lent me his T1 and I hooked it up to my Schiit Fulla and later my Fiio E6. My equipment could drive the T1s no problem, and the sound was very clear, but the mids seemed a bit dull and the bass was lacking compared to my DT880. This is contrary to most DT880 vs T1 comparison posts, many of which state that the bass is fuller and the mids and treble are cleaner on the T1 compared to the DT880. I am assuming this is because I am not using gear with high enough voltage to fuel the T1s?
 
EDIT: Copied the contents of my second post in the thread into this post for clarity.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
However, when I look at headphone amps like the Beyerdynamic A1, I notice that they have very high output impedances.
I realize that impedance can change the damping factor which impacts how headphones sound

 
Well for starters, if you might notice, not a lot of people buy Beyer amps. They're terrible value given that you'll pay that much for a solid state amp that will only work with high impedance headphones (ie the impact on damping factor isn't as bad even if you have less than 1:8 ratio once you get around to higher impedance loads). I mean, at least those who pay that much or less for an OTL amp with the same limitation at least are getting what Sennheiser and Beyer headphones with 250ohms+ really need: high voltage. And you can replace worn tubes more easily than busted chips that need soldering.

 

[clouden]

In regards to my question, it seems like you're saying that while a high damping factor is important, it does not impact sound quality as much as voltage. Due to its high output impedance, the Beyerdynamic A1 is not a good value headphone amplifier because of its limited usage with high impedance headphones.
 
The thing is, one of my acquaintances told me that a high impedance headphone must be paired with a high output impedance headphone amplifier, and he pointed to the Beyerdynamic T1 and A1 as an example of a perfectly matched pair. This caused me some confusion because I always thought that low output impedance in headphone amplifiers is important. Does he have any idea what he is talking about?
 
Lastly, said acquaintance is trying to sell me his Beyerdynamic T1 at a very good price, but I only ever had entry level gear. He lent me his T1 and I hooked it up to my Schiit Fulla and later my Fiio E6. My equipment could drive the T1s no problem, and the sound was very clear, but the mids seemed a bit dull and the bass was lacking compared to my DT880. This is contrary to most DT880 vs T1 comparison posts, many of which state that the bass is fuller and the mids and treble are cleaner on the T1 compared to the DT880. I am assuming this is because I am not using gear with high enough voltage to fuel the T1s?

 

[PurpleAngel]

  In regards to my question, it seems like you're saying that while a high damping factor is important, it does not impact sound quality as much as voltage. Due to its high output impedance, the Beyerdynamic A1 is not a good value headphone amplifier because of its limited usage with high impedance headphones.
 
The thing is, one of my acquaintances told me that a high impedance headphone must be paired with a high output impedance headphone amplifier, and he pointed to the Beyerdynamic T1 and A1 as an example of a perfectly matched pair. This caused me some confusion because I always thought that low output impedance in headphone amplifiers is important. Does he have any idea what he is talking about?
 
Lastly, said acquaintance is trying to sell me his Beyerdynamic T1 at a very good price, but I only ever had entry level gear. He lent me his T1 and I hooked it up to my Schiit Fulla and later my Fiio E6. My equipment could drive the T1s no problem, and the sound was very clear, but the mids seemed a bit dull and the bass was lacking compared to my DT880. This is contrary to most DT880 vs T1 comparison posts, many of which state that the bass is fuller and the mids and treble are cleaner on the T1 compared to the DT880. I am assuming this is because I am not using gear with high enough voltage to fuel the T1s?

 
A high impedance headphones does not have to be used with a headphone amplifier with a high impedance output.
It recommended that the headphone have at least 8 to 10 times the output impedance of the headphone amplifier being used, for good damping control.
Poor damping control will cause things like a bloated (louder, less detailed) bass.
So with 600-Ohm headphones, you would want the headphone amplifier output impedance to be no more then 60 or 75-Ohms, for good damping control.
My O2 headphone amplifier, which has a less then 1-Ohm output impedance, works decently with my 600-Ohm headphones (DT880/DT990)
 
So I'm guessing your friend is not as well informed about headphone technology, as your friend think he is.
 
The Beyer T1 is 600-Ohms, I'm guessing the Fulla and E6 just do not offer enough power to drive the T1's to their best.
 
I would say to budget for a decent tube headphone amplifier.

 

[MindsMirror]

 
The thing is, one of my acquaintances told me that a high impedance headphone must be paired with a high output impedance headphone amplifier, and he pointed to the Beyerdynamic T1 and A1 as an example of a perfectly matched pair. This caused me some confusion because I always thought that low output impedance in headphone amplifiers is important. Does he have any idea what he is talking about?

The T1 and the A1 are both made by Beyerdynamic. Of course they would make an amp that works best with their own headphone, right? At least that's what Beyerdynamic would like you to believe. It sounds like a marketing ploy or personal bias to me, not based on the actual performance of the products.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clouden /img/forum/go_quote.gif

In regards to my question, it seems like you're saying that while a high damping factor is important, it does not impact sound quality as much as voltage. Due to its high output impedance, the Beyerdynamic A1 is not a good value headphone amplifier because of its limited usage with high impedance headphones.

 

Not so much that, or phrased that way. What I'm saying is that the higher the load impedance, the less the 1:8 ratio matters. Look at how many integrated amps with headphone outputs tend to have less differences in sound on an HD600 vs a K702 compared to, say, a Magni.

 

Now, between for example a high output impedance OTL amplifier with a lot of output voltage and a low output impedance but USB-powered DAC-HPamp, a 300ohm headphone will probably have less issues (apart from if the tube amp was deliberately tuned to sound like what old tube amps sound like and people think of that as what sound "should" be like) on the OTL amp than the USB DAC-HPamp that pumps out, say, 25mW at 300ohms. Of course, hooking up a low impedance, low sensitivity headphone to an OTL amp with 120mW at 32ohms would still likely sound worse than the USB-powered one on a higher sensitivity, high impedance headphone.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by clouden /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

The thing is, one of my acquaintances told me that a high impedance headphone must be paired with a high output impedance headphone amplifier, and he pointed to the Beyerdynamic T1 and A1 as an example of a perfectly matched pair. This caused me some confusion because I always thought that low output impedance in headphone amplifiers is important. Does he have any idea what he is talking about?

 

It's not "must" in the sense that if you have a high impedance headphone you need to get an amp with a high output impedance, but the reverse: if your amp has a high output impedance, then you're limited to getting a high impedance headphone. That does not mean that you deliberately buy an amp with a very high output impedance because you have a high impedance headphone, but again between the OTL amp and the USB-powered DAC-HPamp above, unless you'll also drive low impedance headphones, the OTL amp is safer if all your headphones are 250ohms and up.

 

In short, either it's his phrasing or how you understood it, or he doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by clouden /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Lastly, said acquaintance is trying to sell me his Beyerdynamic T1 at a very good price, but I only ever had entry level gear. He lent me his T1 and I hooked it up to my Schiit Fulla and later my Fiio E6. My equipment could drive the T1s no problem, and the sound was very clear, but the mids seemed a bit dull and the bass was lacking compared to my DT880. This is contrary to most DT880 vs T1 comparison posts, many of which state that the bass is fuller and the mids and treble are cleaner on the T1 compared to the DT880. I am assuming this is because I am not using gear with high enough voltage to fuel the T1s?

 

Possibly. As efficient as the T1 is, a DAC-HPamp powered by USB will still tend to have 300ohms as a relatively stiff load, much less 600ohms. It's just that a properly designed USB-powered DAC-HPamp is still likely to not sound as worse as when you drive a low impedance, low sensitivity headphone using an OTL amp that has less output at low impedance on top of having a high output impedance.

 

Note though you don't need to spend a heck of a lot of money on the amp. You can get the Little Dot MkII and just look up what tubes don't make it sound too stereotypically "tubey" (the stock tubes EQ the sound to hte point that Norah Jones sounds like she needs to clear her sinus if my HD600 earpads aren't brand new, ie, there are two of these factors applying the same effect on the sound), but if you're fine with the stock tubes despite the EQ effect, then great. Otherwise, take the guesswork out of the equation and just spring for the Valhalla, but note this doesn't EQ the sound anywhere near as much as what the MkII does.

 

[Orestes1984]

As the memory serves me, the higher the impedance the more efficient a speaker is and the less power that is required for it to make any noise, this becomes even more important when you're trying to get 100db out of a 4inch or smaller driver. On the flip side this results in a double edged scenario, you start to need a higher impedance amplifier to be able to make it work properly at its greatest extent and these such amplifiers end up being more and more expensive.
 
Of course that's the incredibly facile version of the answer, we can get into semantics at a later dater. It gets a lot more complex than that, and it's not a "must" to match the rating of your speaker, it's just safer and you will get a better response when you do.

 

[Me x3]

In what range is the T1's serial number?

 

[clouden]

  In what range is the T1's serial number?

 
The serial number is 21875.

 

[Me x3]

   
The serial number is 21875.

Then yes, it should be slightly warmer than DT880. But don't expect night and day differences.
The T1 is more micro-detailed and a little bit more forward with vocals and this can cancel out the slightly bigger bass depending on the recordings and how you match the volume.
 
FiiO E06 and Fulla are both less than ideal for the T1.
FiiO K5 or Schiit Magni 2 Uber should work significantly better.
You can check the slightly pricier but still not very expensive Matrix HPA-2 as well.
 
If you want something with significantly bigger bass than DT880 you should look elsewhere.
 
Last but not least if you happen to prefer DT880, then keep DT880.
It's a superb headphone and although the T1 is more capable here and there, I found both similarly enjoyable.

 

[NickT23]

Does some high impedance dynamic driver do suffer from low dampening factor and some does not if paired with a low impedance output solid state ?