Is 50 W enough to power a speaker that accepts between 25 and 200 W? Will this produce reference levels and utilize the speaker?

[sumner]

Is 50 W enough to power a speaker that accepts between 25 and 200 W? Will this produce reference levels and utilize the speaker?
683 S2 speakers.
Thanks.

 

[cel4145]

It's not that simple.

How loud a speaker will be is a function of the sensitivity of the speaker, the power given it, and the distance from the listening position. So you'll have to go out and figure out how do those kinds of calculations. But be warned. Manufacturer sensitivity ratings are also not always accurate.

Also, just to verify, do you know what reference level is? There are misconceptions about that on the Internet. How are you defining it?

 

[sumner]

Thankyou.

I have two b&w 683 s2 speaker towers.
The specs:

Sensitivity
89dB/w/m
Impedance
8 ohms
Max power handling
200W
Biwirable:
No
Read more at http://www.whathifi.com/bw/683-s2/review#3ho84w87kjhPlP35.99

I found a good deal for a receiver putting out 110W per channel so I went with it and sold my old receiver.
I bought the marantz SR 6008 from somebody.

I was told since I was biamping the speakers I sould put the coupling back in which connects the two speaker wire input sets on each speaker tower to itself. I thought since I was bi amping I should take them out? I will put them back in then.

I asked and was told to have 20W over power for what my speakers handle wasn't dangerous if I was blasting it. So if I kept the reciever around 90. Is this true? I would like to take care of my speakers.

I am using an external pre amp found in an apogee ensemble for the digital signal, I am converting its TRS outputs into RCA inputs for the reciever.

Thanks for your time, I appreciate your help.

 

[sumner]

I will add:
I thought reference level was when the speakers are loud enough to be studio monitors, provide accurate sound.

These are the specs for my marantz SR6008 reciever:

/Power Output 110W (0.08% @ 8 Ohm), 150W (0.7% @ 6 Ohm)
S/N Ratio 100dB
Freq. Response (Analog In) 10Hz - 100kHz (+/- 3 dB)
Freq. Response (Dig In) No

I shoudl correct I am bi-wiring not bi-amping. Although the specs for the speakers said it did not support bi-wiring. I was told to leave the couplers in though as I said, this is safe right?

I am assuming my apogee ensemble has better d/a conversion even going from TRS to RCA so I will try that and do a listening test.

Thanks!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I will add:
I thought reference level was when the speakers are loud enough to be studio monitors, provide accurate sound.

 
Reference is about accurate sound, period. How loud you need it to be depends on your needs, which in turn can also depend on other factors: noise floor, preference, etc. Regardless, the important thing for "reference sound" in terms of the amplifier is very low levels of distortion. Anything after that depends on what the speaker needs: how much power does it need (and how much can the amp give without distortion), does the speaker need a lot of current (ie whether its impedance swings far from the nominal rating - ergo to match it when it dips to 4ohm  the amp preferably doubles the power), or does it need a lot of voltage (not as prevalent with speakers as with high impedance headphones - no dynamic driver speakers need that much, and some hybrid designs don't need a lot for the non-dynamic tweeters). The need for monstrous amplifiers only exists because the perfect transducer that has a perfectly flat, fullrange response and flat impedance curve, and has very high efficiency, does not exist yet.
 
As a personal preference I would always hedge my bets on an amp that generally should make at least 50% more power at 4ohms, although it would be better if it can double the output. My NAD 304 is only rated for 35wpc but stomped on a number of entry level receivers - enough that when a friend did an HT set-up for concerts and will also be his only audio set-up as well (apart from his car's), I brought my NAD 304 when he looked for a receiver to use as a reference. This was circa 2009, with 2008 and prior receivers, so I wouldn't know if the newer ones are still the same, but a lot of the ones below $1,000 tended to sound very different on a lot of speakers compared to the NAD (either warmer or thinner), and some either had too loud bass or barely there (while the 304 had multi-driver B&W towers pounding clean and tight, and much louder too).
 
Another problem with HT receivers in general is that sometimes they're only tested with one channel running, so they can quote somewhere that "oh it makes 165watts!" which you'd think was entirely accurate if you don't pay attention to "one channel driven, 2khz." Then buried somewhere else in the manual (so it wouldn't be taken that they totally lied, like including the prior disclaimer) it will say, "45w x 5, 2khz, all channels driven." 
 
Given that's a Marantz though I wouldn't worry about it - just hook it up and enjoy the music. However...
 

I am using an external pre amp found in an apogee ensemble for the digital signal, I am converting its TRS outputs into RCA inputs for the reciever.

 

...this seems like a roundabout way of handling the signal. Unless I'm using the receiver's DAC, I'd rather use a 2ch integrated amplifier. Still, you already have it, might as well just use it (but of course consider trading it in if you can find, say, a 2ch integrated amplifier).
 

I asked and was told to have 20W over power for what my speakers handle wasn't dangerous if I was blasting it. So if I kept the reciever around 90. Is this true? I would like to take care of my speakers.

 

That doesn't really matter - what matters is whether the speakers are clipping. If you have a quiet enough room and a 15wpc amplifier can get a speaker loud enough without clipping, then you can use that. I have a pair of 25w tweeters in my car getting 75wpc from my amplifier, but the gain structure has -6db on the receiver's output and the amplifier's gain setting (not the same as a potentiometer, which is more prone channel imbalance) close to zero; also, the 150wpc channels on the same amp is powering 70watt midwoofers in my doors, with gain at 11:00 and 0 on the receiver. I'd be deaf before I hit clipping and I listen just loud enough to get past the noise that I can't keep out of the car - no parking with doors open and having a concert in a parking lot until cops tell me to hit the road.
 
Gain would be different so we'd have no idea how loud 90 is - you'll have to be the one to watch out for clipping and distortion. If for example on bass or percussion you hear a "thwack!" in the background, that means the speakers are hitting their excursion limit, so definitely turn that thing down.
 
So actually a real reference system would have more to do with sealing up a room from outside noise, then getting a neutral enough speaker, then depending on the speaker that you were able to fit in that room, match it with the kind of amp that can drive it properly.

 

[ToddTheMetalGod]

Due to the 8 ohms impedence, 89 dB/W/m sensitivity, and three drivers, you probably wouldn't have had a problem with a 50W reciever (you might not be able to have house parties though ). You should be fine going slightly over the power limits, but it might slightly distort the drivers or put the tweeters at risk... so just be careful pushing the power .

 

[cel4145]

I will add:
I thought reference level was when the speakers are loud enough to be studio monitors, provide accurate sound.

Reference level: http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-technology/thx-reference-level/

I shoudl correct I am bi-wiring not bi-amping. Although the specs for the speakers said it did not support bi-wiring. I was told to leave the couplers in though as I said, this is safe right?

Biwiring accomplishes nothing with an AVR. Leave the couplers on and just run one set of speaker wires.

 

[cel4145]

Due to the 8 ohms impedence . . .

However, those aren't really 8 ohm speakers. The 683s have been measured independently to have a 6 ohm nominal impedance with a dip down to 3.5Ω. However, a Marantz receiver should be fine with them.

 

[sumner]

ProtegeManiac, ToddTheMetalGod, cel4145, thank you so much for your in depth responses! I appreciate the time you've taken to share with me. I am setting these up right now and thrilled with the way they sound! It's good to know what reference level means and what the most accurate way to measure these specs are. That's good to know I don't have to bi-wire and can now have longer speaker wire if I move this. Thanks so much again to everybody.

 

[sumner]

Also, I'm wondering if I am sending a signal by rca into the reciever, and it's already gone through an D/A converter, is the receiver re-processing the signal in its D/A and if so can I turn that off? I assume not because RCA is an analog signal?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Also, I'm wondering if I am sending a signal by rca into the reciever, and it's already gone through an D/A converter, is the receiver re-processing the signal in its D/A and if so can I turn that off? I assume not because RCA is an analog signal?

 
Some receivers send it through an ADC then into its own DAC, some only do so if you use some of the processing. I don't know how the SR6008 does its job, but that's one of the reasons why I'd rather buy an integrated amplifier instead of a receiver...but since you already bought that one, might as well just use until you can track a good deal on an integrated amp.

However, you could check audio and HT communities in your area, or even dealers who accept trade-ins, or Craigslist for example - who knows someone might be looking to ditch a 2ch amp to get into HT, maybe you can work out a trade. Of course, research well on what you're about to get - as much as a good integrated amp with lower ratings can beat HT receivers with double the (bullsh*t) rated power, 1) that isn't true for all 2ch gear and 2) you are using a Marantz, which is the sort of HT receiver that those who want to use their systems for music (or will watch a lot of concerts) tend to go for.

 

[cel4145]

Your receiver should have some kind of pure/direct mode (check your manual). Otherwise, the receiver is taking all analog signals and converting it to digital for the different types of processing it does (bass management, Audyssey, tone controls, virtual surround) and then back to analog again.

 

[sumner]

Thanks you all I found the direct and pure direct modes! It's making a huge difference lol especially with dynamics.

 

[cel4145]

Great! Now if you ever want to use a sub, then you have a problem using that in that the bass management in AVRs is handled digitally.

 

[sumner]

Hmmm.. A sub is a little out of my budget at the moment, even though I banked out for these speakers, lol. 

I was going to try and ask this in DAC, but I was wondering as well, the girl I'm seeing plays a lot of mp3s. I have an old digi 002 I don't record w anymore. Could I use that as a mixer and equalizer in stand alone mode in my signal path, I guess after the ensemble leaves path by TRLs to maybe TRL into the digi, the digi would do some eq and then send the signal to the receiver?

My question is, how much processing if any does the DIGI 002 Console (in stand alone mode) do to the signal if I'm just using it to eq? Maybe even set some levels or experiment with my "old" regular speakers at once. 

I live in a place w very reflective floors and walls, concrete, and finding a good place for these speakers has been hard. I just ordered some wheels I might try to screw onto the bottom of the plinths or see if I can screw them in with the actual bolts that go to the plinth or speakers. That would make it more mobile for sure I think. I've experimented with them on bookshelves sidewalks upside down and everything lol. Gotten two noise complaints so far... gulp.  

p.s. The receiver came with a 'mic' and a little setup up stage to tweak its own EQ, but since the apogee ensemble's digital to analog converters are so good I like sticking to pure direct.