[xnor]

Rip N' Burn: Where did you copy this from?

If you take a look at the official lame USAGE document, you'll find this:

- JOINT STEREO is the default mode for stereo files with fixed bitrates of
128 kbps or less. At higher fixed bitrates, the default is stereo.
For VBR encoding, jstereo is the default for VBR_q >4, and stereo
is the default for VBR_q <=4. You can override all of these defaults
by specifing the mode on the command line.

- jstereo means the encoder can use (on a frame by frame bases) either
regular stereo (just encode left and right channels independently)
or mid/side stereo. In mid/side stereo, the mid (L+R) and side (L-R)
channels are encoded, and more bits are allocated to the mid channel
than the side channel. This will effectively increase the bandwidth
if the signal does not have too much stereo separation.

Emphasis by me. Since V0 = stereo (if the input is stereo) you don't need to specify -ms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rip N' Burn /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not pointless if you can hear a 20kHz tone which some people can. If you can't hear above 19kHz then I agree, it is pointless. If the OP can hear a 20kHz tone, then use --lowpass 20.5.

I don't think he can, many people can't even hear frequencies above 18 kHz. (at normal levels!!) And why would I use 20.5 kHz instead of 20 kHz anyway, because it sound even better?

Lame's defaults and mechanisms to find out what is best are there for a reason, don't you think?

 

[Rip N' Burn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif Rip N' Burn: Where did you copy this from? And why do you think -ms is recommended?

From the CDEX manual.
Why? Because CDs aren't encoded in joint stereo. The point is to get as close as possible as you can to CD sound quality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif Anyway, what you posted is irrelevant because if you take a look at the official lame USAGE document, you'll find this: - JOINT STEREO is the default mode for stereo files with fixed bitrates of 128 kbps or less. At higher fixed bitrates, the default is stereo. For VBR encoding, jstereo is the default for VBR_q >4, and stereo is the default for VBR_q <=4. You can override all of these defaults by specifing the mode on the command line. - jstereo means the encoder can use (on a frame by frame bases) either regular stereo (just encode left and right channels independently) or mid/side stereo. In mid/side stereo, the mid (L+R) and side (L-R) channels are encoded, and more bits are allocated to the mid channel than the side channel. This will effectively increase the bandwidth if the signal does not have too much stereo separation. Emphasis by me.

What version of lame? With lame 3.96 at -V0, it is defaulted to joint stereo.
Yes, I actually USED 3.96 with EAC and saw it for myself when the external compressor command window popped up.



Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think he can, many people can't even hear frequencies above 18 kHz. And why would I use 20.5 kHz instead of 20 kHz anyway, because it sound even better?

Why don't you think he can??

Why use 20.5 kHz instead of 20kHz? Because that the highest frequency that lame can support and even some people can hear up to 22kHz. When I was younger I could hear slightly above 20kHz which is my justification for using this setting.

Thanks for saying some of my points are irrelevant and my other points as pointless.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rip N' Burn /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not pointless if you can hear a 20kHz tone which some people can. If you can't hear above 19kHz then I agree, it is pointless. If the OP can hear a 20kHz tone, then use --lowpass 20.5.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think he can, many people can't even hear frequencies above 18 kHz. (at normal levels!!) And why would I use 20.5 kHz instead of 20 kHz anyway, because it sound even better?

Being able to detect a pure 20K tone on its own is one thing, being able to detect the absence of a 20K signal in a complex music waveform is quite another. If you take a piece of music and run it through a spectrum analyzer and look for how much energy there is above 18K you will find the answer is not very much at all, unless you use single instruments like cymbals. In fact the 20k components may be 40db below the dominant frequencies (for music that actually has a dynamic range

) which are typically in the 0 - 5000hz range.

Back in the 1970s some AES chaps (MURAOKA, YAMADA, AND YAMAZAKI, 1978) tested the effect of different low pass filters on music containing very high frequencies , they found that a 14K was detectable by 10/32 and a 16K filter was not reliably detected by anyone (at 15/20), as the filter got higher the percentage even getting close went down, at 20K nobody managed 14/20, at both 18K and 20K the average correct was 10/20 i.e guessing so filtering at 18K or 19K is highly unlikely to make an audible difference in music even for good ears.

 

[xnor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rip N' Burn /img/forum/go_quote.gif From the CDEX manual. Why? Because CDs aren't encoded in joint stereo. The point is to get as close as possible as you can to CD sound quality.

Guess it was stupid to mention jstereo altogether. :s What I was trying to say: lame figures it all out automatically. And if you force an option it could be more harm than benefit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rip N' Burn /img/forum/go_quote.gif What version of lame? With lame 3.96 at -V0, it is defaulted to joint stereo.

The latest version is 3.98.2 from September 2008!


Sorry about the "irrelevant" stuff I was still editing my post while you replied.
:s

 

[xnor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by maporter /img/forum/go_quote.gif Okay this is weird, I've lost it! I remove the --vbr-new bit from my command statement of -V 0 --vbr-new and re-rip another track just using the command -v0 as suggested krmathis and not only do I end up with differing file sizes, but I've now managed convinced myself the tracks actually sound different to my ears (although I very much doubt they are). File size of 8.12mb using -v0 File Size of 8.16mb using -v0 --vbr-new

That is very strange. Maybe you mixed up -v and -V while doing that comparison?

The screenshot you posted looks alright.
If I add --vbr-new I get exactly the same file, not even a single bit is different.

 

[Rip N' Burn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif Being able to detect a pure 20K tone on its own is one thing, being able to detect the absence of a 20K signal in a complex music waveform is quite another. If you take a piece of music and run it through a spectrum analyzer and look for how much energy there is above 18K you will find the answer is not very much at all. In fact the 20k components may be 60 or 70db below the dominant frequencies which are typically in the 0 - 5000hz range. Back in the 1970s some AES chaps (MURAOKA, YAMADA, AND YAMAZAKI, 1978) tested the effect of different low pass filters on music containing very high frequencies , they found that a 14K was detectable by most subjects and a 16K filter was not reliably detected by anyone (at 15/20), as the filter got higher the percentage even getting close went down, at 20K nobody managed 14/20, at both 18K and 20K the average correct was 10/20 i.e guessing so filtering at 18K or 19K is highly unlikely to make an audible difference in music even for good ears.

I am aware of the db drop at higher frequencies in a multi-frequency waveform. If someone can detect differences or not at above 18kHz in a multi-frequency waveform is another matter, but I do it for peace of mind since CDs are at 22kHz. It only adds a few MBs for every CD that I rip which is isn't a big deal nowadays.

 

[Rip N' Burn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif Guess it was stupid to mention jstereo altogether. :s What I was trying to say: lame figures it all out automatically. And if you force an option it could be more harm than benefit.

Oh, I took it the wrong way then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry about the "irrelevant" stuff I was still editing my post while you replied. :s

No problem, for a second there, I thought the posts were going to get very ugly.