Do Great Older CD Players Sound Better for Older Recordings?

[Hershon2000]

I play mainly 60/70's remastered rock & blues CD's & on my system that sound superior on my 1994 Pioneer Elite PD-59 CD player which I connect by optic cable to my Denon 3801 A/V Receiver then any of the $800 -1500 current CD players I've tried out (Eastsound CD-5, Modified Ah Njoe 4000 & others). I'm wondering if there is a cause & effect relationship with older excellent CD players- mainly that older recordings will sound better on these players then newer excellent CD players, or is this just the luck of the draw? I'm thinking that the older CD players were designed for older recording sounds & the current CD players are designed for a different recording sound. If so, any other older CD players you'd recommend? When I hear the bass & other instruments on pre-1985 or so recordings, they sound so much better to my ears then rock recordings of today which seem to have a more in your face sound with a louder bass & a less natural sound. An example of this is a group like The Killers who I'd say write excellent songs but the way they're recorded totally turns me off.

 

[memepool]

CD players have been through several fundamental technology upgrades since their inception.

First generation machines (1983-87) are usually very well built by modern standards and have excellent quality transports. They are compromised by their chipsets which arn't as resolving as modern players.

2nd Generation and 3rd Generation (1987-1991) machines are still exceptionally well made on the whole ( although they were getting cheaper and more mass produced at this point so stick to the top of the range) and have the best multibit chipsets as the technology was more mature.

4th generation - 1992 - onwards. These machines are more recognisable as modern mass market players with ranges at different pricepoints, so build quality is only there in the top of the range ones. Chipsets are the much cheaper to make Delta Sigma variety which offers a much smoother sound than multibit.

Later generations from the mid - late 1990's onwards use computer CD-ROM and then DVD-ROM transports which many consider inferior sounding although others re-engineer and reprogramme them to try and optimise them for dedicated audio playback. Chipsets are by then pretty much state of the art.

From the turn of the century onwards CD players become more specialised as most of the major manufacturers turn their attention to DVD and home cinema. Smaller specialist manufacturers begin to incorporate elements from accross the whole period of cd playback like a return to multibit and bespoke transports and also experiment with things like valve and upsampling options.

Machines from any period have their advocates and arguments still rage over how the various problems inherent in the format, if any are even admitted, can be addressed.

If any music could be argued to sound better on CD then it would be music produced from the early-mid 1990's onwards when digital mastering became the affordable standard accross the board in all types of music production.

As far as any music produced earlier than that goes Open Reel Tape was the standard from the 2nd World War onwards so any other format involves mastering compromises.

For 60/70's rock & blues most people would argue Open Reel Tape followed by Vinyl to be the best media, although recent CD remasters are improving all the time.

 

[stryker]

You are then using the Pioneer as a transport and the Denon as a DAC? If so, the Pioneer Stable Platter design is likely a better transport which feeds a better digital signal to your Denon. The Stable Platter has been referenced as a great transport.

The difference between old and new player are DAC chips/semiconductor technology and then the analog stage. Both of these have a lot of influence on the sound. There are a number of variables between old and new but as far as improvements in technology go interms of old vs. new, the big changes are the transports and the DAC and chipset semiconductor technology.

Oh yeah, some eras have a lot of compression that were done in the mastering process. That is less relevant if the cds were re-mastered within the last 5-10 years. However, there was a lot of compression in the mastering business at certain periods of time in the 80s and early 90s, I believe. The result was a different sound but the output levels were very even.

 

[Hershon2000]

Appreciate your insite. Are there any pre 90 CD players you'd recommend as I see them on Ebay every once & a while.

 

[stryker]

I'm not sure I still have an idea of what it is that you are asking.

I can say that a GOOD cd player, by that I mean one which accurately reproduces a given signal, will make older recordings sound BAD because they reveal all the flaws in the recording and engineering using older recording methods. Older players= less revealing info= better sounding "bad recordings." Better players=more revealing info=limitations of older recording methods are heard that sound like crap.

Are you using the DAC in your Denon processor as your DAC? If so, there are a number of known older, well-built players that are superior in build quality includgin transport quality. These include older Pioneer, older Sony, and some toshiba transports.

I use a modified Sony DVP-S7000 as a transport as it's held as a low-jitter source. Is this what you are getting at? Let me know or PM me and we can talk. I can verbally tell you more in 10 minutes than I can on this place.

 

[bigshot]

Personally, I would never give up the ability to play CD-Rs. Older CD players have trouble tracking them.

See ya
Steve

 

[Hershon2000]

I personally haven't had any problem with playing CD-R's on my PD-59 but agree that would be a dealbreaker in not purchasing a player that couldn't.

 

[Garbz]

These posts are overgeneralisations of consumer CDplayers.

Yes modern cdplayers have cheap DVD transports, and Delta-Sigma DACs (mind you these are getting exceptionally good). But the story changes when you get out of consumer grade gear and back to audiophile / pro gear where you'll still find such transports as the renouned CDPro2 by philips, along with R2R Multibit DACs like the PCM1704 which is argueably an industry favorate.

That's not to say that there's some good oldersounding players. One thing that has changed quite fundementally though is the Oversampling vs Non-OS. Me I personally prefer the former despite what people say I just don't like the idea of Non-OS and the sound that the unit's I've heard have produced.

Regardless of what they may sound like the biggest problem is that transports have a limited life expectancy. If you buy old cdplayers, expect to have to repair them or replace them constantly, yes there are players which still work but in general I would not look at a cdplayer older then about 10 years.

Also the fact that you are connecting the player to the Denon via optical leads me to believe a few other things. For on it is the sound of the denon you enjoy rather than the transport (have you tested other cdplayers or other tranports?), and secondly the endless problems with toslink as an interface mean that the data and jitter characteristics entering the player probably have nothing to do with the player.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot Personally, I would never give up the ability to play CD-Rs. Older CD players have trouble tracking them.

This is simply not the case. I have a collection of 1st and 2nd gen players and they all play CD-Rs without issue. The only one I ever came accross which didn't was the Japanese derived Beogram CD-50 so maybe it's the case with early Aiwa or Yamaha tranasports? Even my 1st gen PCDP Sony CD-50 plays them fine.

 

[bigshot]

I had an old Sony that skipped like crazy on CD-Rs.

See ya
Steve

 

[Garbz]

It's a hit and miss thing and depends on the cd as well. One of the guys from here (forgot hish nick), dropped a Studer unit at my place. Really old thing, could not play my Sony CDRs, did manage to play Mitsuis though.

Either way their laser units were designed for one surface, aluminium. If the colour is different there are no guarantees.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garbz It's a hit and miss thing and depends on the cd as well. One of the guys from here (forgot hish nick), dropped a Studer unit at my place. Really old thing, could not play my Sony CDRs, did manage to play Mitsuis though. Either way their laser units were designed for one surface, aluminium. If the colour is different there are no guarantees.

Which Studer was it? They are pretty nice machines generally found in CD mastering plants for testing purposes.

As I said I have a large collection of vintage 1st and 2nd gen machines and have only come accross this issue with one machine ever so it seems to a myth.

First generation machines generally have much more powerful lasers and much higher quality mechanisms because in the 1980's they expected to have a lot more problems with the consistency of CD pressings.

I have been playing blue and green coloured CD-Rs just now with no problems on a Sony D-50 (1985), Sony D-Z555 (1991) and a Philips CD104 (1983).

 

[jpr703]

I think it's impossible to generalize here. I've heard some excellent older players--in particular a Nakamichi player that really blew me away, but I've also heard some great modern day players. You'll have to take it on a unit by unit basis. Personally, I try to stay away from oversampling DACs, but you'll have to decide for yourself. Try some different players out and see what you think.

 

[Herandu]

There were a couple of good DAC chip sets in the 80's such as the TDA1541, TDA1543, and SAA7000. The TDA 1541 is still used till this day in one of the world's most expensive DACs. It costs less than U$10, but the DAC costs around U$30,000!
My favourite CD player of that generation is the Philips CD-960. Uses a SAA7000 and a couple of NE5532 audio chips. Whilst the CDM104 laser assembly is only a single beam unit, it performs better than the Japanese laser assembly IMHO.
Players like that would cost upwards of U$1000 to build. I sold mine by mistake, hinking that new was best. Next time I see one on eBay or where ever, I am buying it.