[blind boy grunt]

Newbie here... After 10-15 years of casually listening to Grado SR-80 and ATH-M50x directly out of my iPhone, I decided to upgrade. I spent a lot of time on these forums and ordered some equipment to audition:
Headphones: HD800s, Focal Clear MG and Grado GS1000X
DAC/amps: Valhalla 2 w/ Modi Multibit 2 and Mojo 2
I'm looking for wide soudstage and detailed instrument separation. And hopefully a nice, warm sound. From my forum research I expected to like the HD800s with the Schiit gear. I spent hours A/B testing whole tracks as well as special segments. Everything sounded nice but the Focals had a smaller soundstage and the HD800s kept sounding flat / not dynamic. Turning on the gain switch on the Valhalla helped (both amps needed the volume much higher to drive the HD800s). Did I pair the HD800s with the wrong amps? I have read positive feedback about pairing them with both Valhalla and Mojo. FWIW, I tried all three HPs with my PS Audio Sprout and found similar results. The HD800s are way more comfortable, more attractive and have removable cables -- I like everything about them better except for the sound. The Grados just sound perfect to me but if there is better sound out there, I want to find it.

I did a lot of comparing of the Schiit vs the Mojo and in many cases found a similar sound with some tracks slightly better with each amp. The Schiit edged out the Mojo overall but I'm planning on keeping the Mojo instead due to the portability and durability.

Thanks to the Head-Fi community for all past posts I used to research this and for any feedback you are able to provide here.

P.S. Details: No power conditioning, no high-end cables. Audition tracks are mostly classic rock (Bob Marley, Bob Dylan, Dark Side of the Moon, Steely Dan, Fleetwood Mac), Vivaldi and Miles Davis.

 

[Monsterzero]

I'm looking for wide soudstage and detailed instrument separation. And hopefully a nice, warm sound.

Dunno your budget, but you just described most of the ZMF lineup. Atrium open, Verite open and Caldera open to name three.

Did I pair the HD800s with the wrong amps?

I'm not a fan of Schiit gear, but in theory it should be a good match. A couple things....

Is all of your gear new, or did you buy stuff used?
Did you use stock tubes?

The HD800 is many things, warm it is most def not. It can be warmed up by using an R2R DAC and warm tubes/amp, but you'd still be chasing your tail. Your best bet is a warm pair of headphones.

 

[blind boy grunt]

Thansk for you reply. Those ZMF headphones are beautiful! The GS1000X or HD800s plus Mojo2 are pushing the limit of what I can spend now. ZMF will be on my "someday list".
All the gear I am auditioning is new. I was really surprised that the HD800s didn't make my ears happier. I don't see much mention of Grado on these forums so maybe that is why I didn't expect much. I know that Jason Stoddard of Schiit says he prefers Grado.

 

[Monsterzero]

The GS1000X or HD800s plus Mojo2 are pushing the limit of what I can spend now. ZMF will be on my "someday list".

The Auteur Classic is in your price range-ish, and it's essentially 90% of the Atrium for half the price. It isnt as wide open and spacious as the HD800 and it is the most neutral of all of the ZMFs, but it's a great headphone, especially for the price.

All the gear I am auditioning is new.

Some believe in burn-in, some don't. I do. I'd give your gear at least 100 hours before passing final judgement. That said, you're already hearing the "general sound", and the HD800 will never blossom into a warm cuddly sounding headphone.

Regarding tube amps, most companies ship their tube amps with the cheapest and easiest to source glass, which is typically Russian or Chinese modern made. If you've never rolled tubes before, there is much to be gained by swapping modern Russian for NOS British or Italian made tubes.

I'm not personally familiar with what tubes the Valhalla takes, nor how it responds to tube rolling, so take the above comment with a couple grains of salt.

I was really surprised that the HD800s didn't make my ears happier

The HD800 is like a precision scalpel for dissecting music. It's going to reveal everything, for better or for worse. Flaws in a recording and weak links in your gear will be laid out in all of its bloody glory for all to witness.

I don't see much mention of Grado on these forums

Grados are quite polarizing. Some love them, some hate them, and there doesn't seem to be much middle ground. Personally I like the Grados sound for rock and blues music, but I cannot handle the lack of comfort as my ears are slammed against my glasses and skull.
There are bowl pads available for Grados, so they can go over your ears as opposed to on them, but they change the sound quite a bit, and not for the better IMO.

 

[spittis]

How did you like the Clears? The Auteur is a good recommendation based on what you wrote.

 

[blind boy grunt]

The Clears sound great with both amps -- very detailed, crisp and intimate. And I love the comfort and form factor. But if I'm going to have open back headphones, I want a big soundstage and the Grado and HD800s both have nice wide presentations.

 

[spittis]

OK, it's been a while since I heard the Clears, going by memory the Auteurs have a bit wider soundstage, but not that much. It will not be on the HD800S level. If you can find it for demo, I would try Hifiman Arya Organic. They have a pretty large soundstage, but a bit more "warmth" too.

 

[blind boy grunt]

I wish I could find a good demo opportunity. Ordering and returning equipment is a bit cumbersome. Unfortunately, I was not able to attend the NYC Canjam this year.

 

[Monsterzero]

But if I'm going to have open back headphones, I want a big soundstage and the Grado and HD800s both have nice wide presentations.

And here lies the rub...Not every headphone is going to check all of the boxes, hence why many members own several pairs.

I've not heard many warm headphones with a wide expansive stage. The Verite open and the Atrium open being two exceptions. Still, the HD800 is going to be probably the grandest stage of them all, at least for dynamic driver headphones. The AKG K701 and the 501 and 601 before it, have huge stages, but are not warm and lack tactile bass and texture, similar to the HD800.

The Hifiman Susvara has a large stage, but it's major bucks and demands very powerful and costly upstream gear to get the best out of them. Same goes for electrostat headphones...huge stage, huge dollars, not huge bass.

For warmth, stage, great mids, texture and bass you're looking at the Atrium open with the radial mesh, or no mesh at all seeing as how you like the Grados. Verite is similar but for rock music, the Atrium is the way to go, or the Auteur classic until you can afford an upgrade. Some members prefer the Auteur over the Atrium, so its def no slouch.

 

[Failed Engineer]

An off the beaten path that I think hit the mark is a JAR600 or JAR650. These are modded Sennheiser headphones you'd have to find used for around $500-600 or commission one from JAR. Look for a B version as they sound far more open than the earlier A revision. They punch far beyond their price and hit your criteria of wide, warm, and very good imaging.

 

[dunring]

I just had another HD800s last week and they aren't picky about amplifiers as long as you can keep up with the voltage swings in the bass region. Balanced DAC on most anything will sound terrific. A lot of people like tube amplifiers for that reason. I tried them on an SMSL C200, DL200, my Topping A70 Pro and even a Soundblaster AE-7 and they really sounded good. They're 300 ohm and peak a lot higher in the bass region, but it doesn't take exotic stuff to get the best from them. I'm convinced it's deflection when someone says how their HD800S or Susvara is picky about amplifiers, it's just them being picky and blaming the headphones

 

[haasaaroni]

Did I pair the HD800s with the wrong amps?

Can't speak for the mojo 2, but I found the stock Valhalla 2 to have an etched quality to the upper midrange/treble. It definitely leans towards the "dry" and "spacious" side of tube amps, rather than the "thick" and "warm," the latter of which I think the 800 series benefits more from.

It all depends on your use case. I only really want my 8XX to listen to orchestral music with, so the Pendant, with its slightly warmer, but leaning towards a more spacious and detailed sound, is ideal for me. If I wanted to listen to the 8XX for other genres, though, I would either look into equalization for Macs, or find a really warm, syrupy tube amp like the Feliks Elise MkII as a pairing. Even if I just roll a warm tube combo on my Pendant, it warms the 8XX up and opens it to use with other genres. The Valhalla 2 just wouldn't be my pick.

@Monsterzero's Auteur Classic suggestion is a good one! Not as spacious sounding as the HD800S, but very satisfying tonality and sense of impact, with decent layering (especially on a good tube amp).

A more tonally correct version of the HD800S (IMO) is the HE1000 V2. It's discontinued, but good deals can be easily found on the used market. Amazing timbre, stellar spaciousness, its only drawback is that it's just a little soft for more energetic music. But I enjoyed it with rock, classical, pop, pretty much anything. I can't say the same for the Arya Stealth or previous versions (haven't heard the Arya Organic yet).

 

[blind boy grunt]

Thanks for all the thoughtful feedback. It seems that the two amps I used with the HD800s were adequate and the sound just wasn't to my liking. I'm going to stick with the Grados despite thier minor flaws. The sound makes my ears very happy. If I can find a way to audition the Auteur, I'll give them a shot before my return window on the Grados closes. Either way, this new setup is a big improvement over my old one. Once my kids college is all paid for, I'll seek out more fun gear.

 

[sygnus21]

Did I pair the HD800s with the wrong amps? I have read positive feedback about pairing them with both Valhalla and Mojo. FWIW, I tried all three HPs with my PS Audio Sprout and found similar results. The HD800s are way more comfortable, more attractive and have removable cables -- I like everything about them better except for the sound. The Grados just sound perfect to me but if there is better sound out there, I want to find it.

Whether you believe in burn-in or not, understand you cannot listen to any hi-fi gear to determine its true quality in a day or two. Trust me, what a new pair of headphones sound like today, will definitely change is a week or two.

I own a pair of HD800S and what they sounded like when I first got them in Feb, is not what they sound like today - less treble heavy, better clarity, and cleaner bass today. The same happened when I bought my Sennheiser HD700 phones to the point I thought they were defective.

The other issue is if you're not used to open back headphones, they can be a bit off-putting if all you're used to are closed back phones.

And yes, matching (synergy) matters. If you have a bright sounding system and are looking for a headphone to tone some of that brightness down, the HD800S phones are not a good match there. On the flipside, if your headphones are bright and you're looking to tone those down get a warmer system.

I've never heard any of the amps mentioned above so I can't comment on which amp would be the better match. I just posting this for things to consider.

For me, I went with a warm / colored headphone amp in the Denafrips Artemis, which is also a match made in heaven for the HD800S as those phones were also used to tune the amp by the manufacturer.

Good luck.

 

[kumar402]

You took me back to 2018 when I paired 800s with Valhalla 2 with Mojo OG as DAC.
In short I was not a fan at all. It was bright for me. I ended up enjoying Z1R then 800s with that setup. Then came Metrum DAC in my life with Drop ZDT Jr. and I never looked back.