DCA Noire X - what DAC/amp to use?

[threetoedsloth]

After some experimenting with different types of audio (Truthear Hexas, Koss SportaPros, Sony XM5s, Moondrop Dawn Pro, Hifiman Edition XS) I decided to draw the line for my headphone spending on the Noire X because my family prefers me on closed-back headphones and because the reviews were a little bit better than I expected.

I am happy with the resolution, detail, comfort, everything with the Noire X so far. I do notice the recessed male vocals a bit, but that's literally the only thing that seems imperfect about them. I experience a notable upgrade on every facet of the Edition XS, and I don't really feel held back by the closed-back soundstage at this point. I like that I forget I'm wearing them.

I have been using Ifi Zen V3 as my amp/DAC and am reasonably happy with it, especially for toting to the living room (where I am now) and being powered via USB. A volume knob and I'm mostly comfortable with it and happy with how they stood the test of a full work week in terms of my genres (indie rock, rap, guitars and synths more generally). But I'm not sure if I should be exploring fancier DACs if this type of headphone really is endgame for me.

I was kind of considering a Chord Mojo 2, but I like my 4.4mm balanced cable as it is, and any more expensive DAC would probably live in my WFH office, so it's not like I need the portability. Basically the same goes for Dragonfly.

I have a Hifiman EF400 on the way because I couldn't resist half price (open-box) for what mostly reviewed very well at $600 just 3 years ago, although if it doesn't wow me I will return it.

If I were to pick a product right now, I would probably believe in the hype for the JDS Labs Element IV - even though I don't need that much juice - which has a similar feel to the Noire X in terms of mid-fi endgame vibes, and potentially getting me interested in EQ as opposed to changing what I listen to. But I'm willing to spend more if there's a particular fit in the desktop DAC space.

I would be willing to try SMSL, Shanling, Schiit, Fiio, or Topping (to name the brands that are standing out to me from my 'research') in the $300-800 price range. I don't really feel an urge to explore tube amps at the moment. I like the convenience of a combined DAC/amp but it's not a big deal to me as long as it can sit on my desk.

I mostly have been leaning on Headfonia and Headfonics reviews (hence the Noire X).

I'm interested in first-hand suggestions if possible, but also general taste profile suggestions focused on analytical/detailed listening first, and warmth/musicality second. Mostly, I need a reason to believe that DACs and amps are that important.

 

[dunring]

Some stuff I currently have that came in for the business this week:

SMSL C200 Pro: upgrade to the original with lower noise floor, even smaller form factor, but same 1.5 watts @ 32 ohm and sounds excellent.
Topping G5: it's a 120 SINAD 10oz amp/DAC that rivals desktop setups, flawless sound and extremely low noise floor. 6 hrs playback on medium gain for headphones at loud volume, but takes 3 hours to charge on a fast charger.
Fosi Audio DS2 It's a USB dongle with 117 SINAD and enough power for headphones too. Check audiosciencereview, Amir did measurements and I got one, on the 4.4mm balanced side you'd be surprised how many full size headphones this thing can power up well.

Any of these will deliver sound quality, just matter of form factor and portability. I use a 3ft USB cable on the computer for the Fosi DS2, and then the tiny one that comes with it for on the phone. A 4,000ma battery on the phone is recommended though for powering headphones.

 

[BS5711]

After some experimenting with different types of audio (Truthear Hexas, Koss SportaPros, Sony XM5s, Moondrop Dawn Pro, Hifiman Edition XS) I decided to draw the line for my headphone spending on the Noire X because my family prefers me on closed-back headphones and because the reviews were a little bit better than I expected.

I am happy with the resolution, detail, comfort, everything with the Noire X so far. I do notice the recessed male vocals a bit, but that's literally the only thing that seems imperfect about them. I experience a notable upgrade on every facet of the Edition XS, and I don't really feel held back by the closed-back soundstage at this point. I like that I forget I'm wearing them.

I have been using Ifi Zen V3 as my amp/DAC and am reasonably happy with it, especially for toting to the living room (where I am now) and being powered via USB. A volume knob and I'm mostly comfortable with it and happy with how they stood the test of a full work week in terms of my genres (indie rock, rap, guitars and synths more generally). But I'm not sure if I should be exploring fancier DACs if this type of headphone really is endgame for me.

I was kind of considering a Chord Mojo 2, but I like my 4.4mm balanced cable as it is, and any more expensive DAC would probably live in my WFH office, so it's not like I need the portability. Basically the same goes for Dragonfly.

I have a Hifiman EF400 on the way because I couldn't resist half price (open-box) for what mostly reviewed very well at $600 just 3 years ago, although if it doesn't wow me I will return it.

If I were to pick a product right now, I would probably believe in the hype for the JDS Labs Element IV - even though I don't need that much juice - which has a similar feel to the Noire X in terms of mid-fi endgame vibes, and potentially getting me interested in EQ as opposed to changing what I listen to. But I'm willing to spend more if there's a particular fit in the desktop DAC space.

I would be willing to try SMSL, Shanling, Schiit, Fiio, or Topping (to name the brands that are standing out to me from my 'research') in the $300-800 price range. I don't really feel an urge to explore tube amps at the moment. I like the convenience of a combined DAC/amp but it's not a big deal to me as long as it can sit on my desk.

I mostly have been leaning on Headfonia and Headfonics reviews (hence the Noire X).

I'm interested in first-hand suggestions if possible, but also general taste profile suggestions focused on analytical/detailed listening first, and warmth/musicality second. Mostly, I need a reason to believe that DACs and amps are that important.

I am of the opinion, based on my experience over the last several years and over 20 different DAC/amps and separate DAC and amps, that sonic differences between audio electronic devices are talked about in a manner that suggests they are far far more dramatic than is real.

I believe you could buy any number of modern solid state devices and be happy so long as the price, features and connectivity were appropriate for your use case.

What is important, is being aware of the current demands due to the low impedance of the Noire X. I don’t have the X but I have the Noire and had the Aeon Open.

An amplifier needs maximum power into a low impedance in order to deliver high current demanded by the low impedance headphone.

The iFi V3 almost certainly has relatively poor current availability especially running off USB. I had a V2 when I had my Aeon and it was extremely easy to make the V2 distort badly driving the low impedance load. I don’t imagine the V3 is fundamentally different.

I would suggest something that has maximum power into 16 ohms or even less if possible. I had a Schiit Asgard 3 which drove the Noire incredibly well with no distortion even at volumes one could never listen at for more than a moment but a the latest Magni was also extremely good even at extremely high volume.

---

EDIT - I overlooked the EF400 comment, I am sure it will do a great job.

 

[buke9]

I think the Noire X is an excellent choice it is a very good closed back headphone . I had them on a tour a few months ago and really enjoyed them and didn’t find them real hard to drive . I would wait for the EF400 to do anything else as I’ve heard it a few times mainly with HiFiMan headphones but thought it did a good .
Good luck and let us know how the EF 400 works out for you .

 

[threetoedsloth]

Received the Hifiman EF400, and the sound quality is as good as I had hoped. I didn't know what to expect from R2R sound, but it makes me want to use wine terminology for the first time. I had some skipping before, but not since changing to a different cable. I don't need Bluetooth or other extras, and it seems like this is a pretty good endgame setup. Now I just need to figure out transporting it every day...

 

[ajimon]

D16 Taipan. DAPs tend to become outdated quickly, and since they can overlap in function with smartphones you already own, I personally prefer DACs. I used to use the iBasso DX320MAX Ti but sold it secondhand, and now I’m listening with the D16—which actually delivers even better performance. The more reasonable price is another advantage.

 

[threetoedsloth]

I'm still really enjoying the EF400. I'm just not sure if there's something about it that's inauthentic. I've reviewed the discussions and criticisms of it and there is definitely some amount of consensus around the idea that it has more resonance, body, or something like that (one claimed it was 'smearing'). I don't know if that's just successful R2R sound because it's the aspect of the sound that stands out the most to me and what I enjoy about it. I'm confused as to what high-quality non-R2R DACs sounds like.

At this point, I'm window shopping for a JDS Labs Element IV because the reviews seem along the same lines as the Noire X, in terms of being a game-changer at a mid-tier price point. But I got the Fosi Audio DS2 and am happy with it as a backup. Mostly I am turning against the Zen v3 and will probably sell it. I just can't imagine going without the substance of the EF400 sound. I just don't like that the EF400 is controversial and apparently measures pretty poorly, even if that's why I could get it at half price.

Also a little sad at the announcement of the Noire XO, now there's a new kid on the block...

 

[BS5711]

I'm still really enjoying the EF400. I'm just not sure if there's something about it that's inauthentic. I've reviewed the discussions and criticisms of it and there is definitely some amount of consensus around the idea that it has more resonance, body, or something like that (one claimed it was 'smearing'). I don't know if that's just successful R2R sound because it's the aspect of the sound that stands out the most to me and what I enjoy about it. I'm confused as to what high-quality non-R2R DACs sounds like.

At this point, I'm window shopping for a JDS Labs Element IV because the reviews seem along the same lines as the Noire X, in terms of being a game-changer at a mid-tier price point. But I got the Fosi Audio DS2 and am happy with it as a backup. Mostly I am turning against the Zen v3 and will probably sell it. I just can't imagine going without the substance of the EF400 sound. I just don't like that the EF400 is controversial and apparently measures pretty poorly, even if that's why I could get it at half price.

Also a little sad at the announcement of the Noire XO, now there's a new kid on the block...

Can I politely suggest not to expect significant changes in sound between electronic devices regardless of what you might read about them and regardless of how they measure.

I have done a number of blind comparisons and I believe, as stated above, that the differences between electronics described in places like Head Fi are at best blown way out of proportion and at worst are completely imagined and due to normal human biases and poor volume matching.

Having read about the "sound" of a device then listening for it will create an expectation bias that can legitimately result in you hearing that sound even if it doesn't exist.

Slight changes in volume will significantly alter the perception of sound such that listening with one device then casually swapping to the other is all but pointless if comparing their sound. In blind tests with a switch box to go instantly between devices, even slightly mismatched volume creates a difference in sound even when they volume difference is barely even perceptible even with instant switching, adjust the volume just a tiny amount, hardly even audible as a volume change, and the apparent sound difference disappears or can be made to be reversed between devices depending on which one is louder at that moment in time.

Properly volume matched the difference between several solid state devices I have compared is either non-existent or so subtle that it is still possibly only due to expectation or very subtle volume mismatch.

The above are not my opinion they are fact, if you are not aware of the psychological aspects of audio perception and the importance of very precise volume matching I urge you to read about that before going further. There is an entire industry built around people hearing stuff that is either overstated or imagined.

I would suggest doing careful comparisons between the V3 and EF400, blind if at all possible, over various volumes at the very minimum, to better assess what differences might exist and that might help guide future gear purchases. It might remove a fun part of the hobby chasing gear but at the same time it might encourage you to spend money where it will get the best return, that being the headphones or IEM and quality music.

If the above sounds like nonsense, please do some reading about it and consider for a moment that it might be true and do some testing for yourself.

 

[tesarpa]

With all respect, my experience is quite opposite. Amps have significantly different sound, specifically in combination with low impedance headphones. I owned Noire X for few months and they definitely sound different connected to Arcam rhead vs. Benchmark DAC3.

 

[Blindranger]

I am really enjoying the Noire-X x Mojo 2 pairing.

 

[theveterans]

With all respect, my experience is quite opposite. Amps have significantly different sound, specifically in combination with low impedance headphones. I owned Noire X for few months and they definitely sound different connected to Arcam rhead vs. Benchmark DAC3.

Those are due to impedance damping factor. Noire X isn't totally flat impedance across the frequencies

 

[BS5711]

With all respect, my experience is quite opposite. Amps have significantly different sound, specifically in combination with low impedance headphones. I owned Noire X for few months and they definitely sound different connected to Arcam rhead vs. Benchmark DAC3.

All electronic gear in audio sound different to me as well, until compared blind and accurately volume matched.

If your comment is based on normal sighted listening comparisons you are subject to the biases I discussed above and, with respect, are doing exactly what I suggested the chap be aware of. That is make statements about objective differences based on subjective experiences which can very easily be inaccurate.

Of course output impedance differences play a part as Mr Veterans indicates but that is a demonstrable technical detail that will sometimes change sound not because a certain amplifier has a distinct sound that will be heard with all headphones.

 

[Kevintj604]

All electronic gear in audio sound different to me as well, until compared blind and accurately volume matched.

If your comment is based on normal sighted listening comparisons you are subject to the biases I discussed above and, with respect, are doing exactly what I suggested the chap be aware of. That is make statements about objective differences based on subjective experiences which can very easily be inaccurate.

Of course output impedance differences play a part as Mr Veterans indicates but that is a demonstrable technical detail that will sometimes change sound not because a certain amplifier has a distinct sound that will be heard with all headphones.

Highly disagree with your comments.

Just a DAC and it's synergy with an amp can make a HUGE difference in a source chain. I've got multiple amps and both not only sound wildly different but the way a transducer responds to both also makes a big difference.

I'm not only talking about volume matching and SPL either.

The examples that you've given are both Schitt products so clearly they'll both have the same house sound. If you compare an Asgard to a Chord product or Topping all three will sound noticeably different from one another. We're not even talking about solid state versus OTL or transformer coupled tube amps which all three impart drastic differences in sound.

 

[BS5711]

Highly disagree with your comments.

Just a DAC and it's synergy with an amp can make a HUGE difference in a source chain. I've got multiple amps and both not only sound wildly different but the way a transducer responds to both also makes a big difference.

I'm not only talking about volume matching and SPL either.

The examples that you've given are both Schitt products so clearly they'll both have the same house sound. If you compare an Asgard to a Chord product or Topping all three will sound noticeably different from one another. We're not even talking about solid state versus OTL or transformer coupled tube amps which all three impart drastic differences in sound.

Again, respectfully, if your comments are based on subjective assessment you are making statements about objective performance based on subjective perception and that is inevitably subject to bias, that is an inescapable truth.

Like I said, I hear all the same differences that others talk about until I compare blind and accurately volume matched.

Except of course with output impedance changes.

I don’t know what you think you read but I never mentioned specific equipment and certainly not Schiit - apologies, I mixed up my posts, I mentioned two Schiit products but that was not intended to be in respect of sound just power available and if it was suitable.

EDIT - that is the power of psychological influence on perception of sound, the perception is utterly convincing and no argument pointing out bias etc will change ones mind, the only thing that is equally convincing is a controlled blind comparison and most folks are convinced enough in what they hear and/or not curious enough to bother.

 

[Kevintj604]

Again, respectfully, if your comments are based on subjective assessment you are making statements about objective performance based on subjective perception and that is inevitably subject to bias, that is an inescapable truth.

Like I said, I hear all the same differences that others talk about until I compare blind and accurately volume matched.

Except of course with output impedance changes.

I don’t know what you think you read but I never mentioned specific equipment and certainly not Schiit.

EDIT - that is the power of psychological influence on perception of sound, the perception is utterly convincing and no argument pointing out bias etc will change ones mind.

Wow. Sounds like you've been watching way too many Resolve videos and not trusting your own ears.


This is you mentioning Schitt equipment.

I would suggest something that has maximum power into 16 ohms or even less if possible. I had a Schiit Asgard 3 which drove the Noire incredibly well with no distortion even at volumes one could never listen at for more than a moment but a the latest Magni was also extremely good even at extremely high volume.

You and I aren't going to agree here and it's way too large of a topic to bother going tit for tat in this thread. Especially since it's not the topic that the OP posted about.

@threetoedsloth
Getting back on topic regardless of what BS5711 is stating the Noire X needs boatloads of power to sound correct. He'd have you believe that an iPhone dongle is adequate enough and your inherent bias is making you believe that it's not. Absurd. Even Dan Clark mentions in the Noire X thread that it needs a lot of power as well so you don't need to take my word for it. There's tons of products with enough power and current to drive the Noire X optimally in your price range but they definitely scale with higher end source equipment.