Chord Mojo 2 Thread ___ [product released January 31, 2022 -- starting on page 95 of thread]
Dec 14, 2023 at 10:40 AM Post #9,376 of 10,387
In a low latency game on a low latency system the delay is typically 20-30ms from peripheral to on-screen action. Low latency monitors are typically 3-7ms of latency while "normal" monitors will typically have 15-30ms of latency. The delay on the mojo makes the sound noticeably out of sync so I wouldn't use it over USB for any kind of fast paced gaming. It is fine for slower more casual gaming where timing isn't that important.
I wouldn’t identify as a “casual” gamer (since I play pretty much every day and have for almost four decades), but I definitely don’t notice any audio latency—even though I know the Mojo 2 measures at about 30ms latency. Between the unpredictable latency of an internet connection, the latency of my gaming peripherals (via bluetooth), and the inherent latency cooked into many (if not most) games, I’ve become pretty much inured to anything less than about 50ms. And that’s with a very low-latency monitor (1-3ms).

I may be wrong, but I have a hard time imagining that very many people using a Mojo 2 are also worried about sub-10ms latency for gaming. I mean, hell, my Denafrips Ares II DAC hits close to a 100ms latency. It’s bad enough that it can affect movie/TV watching. I just don’t think latency is much of a concern for most music-listening-focused DAC designers, let alone listeners.
 
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Dec 14, 2023 at 11:16 AM Post #9,377 of 10,387
I wouldn’t identify as a “casual” gamer (since I play pretty much every day and have for almost four decades), but I definitely don’t notice any audio latency—even though I know the Mojo 2 measures at about 30ms latency. Between the unpredictable latency of an internet connection, the latency of my gaming peripherals (via bluetooth), and the inherent latency cooked into many (if not most) games, I’ve become pretty much inured to anything less than about 50ms. And that’s with a very low-latency monitor (1-3ms).

I may be wrong, but I have a hard time imagining that very many people using a Mojo 2 are also worried about sub-10ms latency for gaming. I mean, hell, my Denafrips Ares II DAC hits close to a 100ms latency. It’s bad enough that it can affect movie/TV watching. I just don’t think latency is much of a concern for most music-listening-focused DAC designers, let alone listeners.

Well said and agree on these pts. As an example my Fiio R7 has latency through USB that is noticeable, or is it just the crappy CoD servers? It is the servers.
 
Dec 14, 2023 at 12:00 PM Post #9,378 of 10,387
Well said and agree on these pts. As an example my Fiio R7 has latency through USB that is noticeable, or is it just the crappy CoD servers? It is the servers.
I'm only a casual gamer. Was very happy with my Logitech setup, but one day I thought I'd see how the Mojo2 sounded via USB from my PC. I was dumbfounded by the quality of the in game audio. The accuracy of the sound placement in game was astonishing and made it a much more immersive (and at times) anxious experience. It shouldn't have surprised me given how much the gaming industry is worth, but the audio was every bit as good (probably better) than any movie.
 
Dec 14, 2023 at 2:58 PM Post #9,379 of 10,387
The more the white noise issue gets discussed, makes me feel that it’s not exactly fit for purpose of being a portable device. I’m in a situation where I bought the Mojo 2 and returned it due to the white noise issue however as others have said it’s not just a Chord problem. I wanted to go down the portable dac/amp route however it might just be better to get another DAP but with that is the old OS issue and app support 😩

I just remembered that I use to wish new Mojo iterations had an IR Receiver. Not necessarily a physical remote which adds to the cost because one can program their own mini remote control. Logitech Harmony is discontinued, but using it as an example. I think it's a smart decision to move on to something else. There's no material item that is worth one's health.

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I mention this because I use the "Mute" Button as a fail-safe. Not for "White Noise" because I never had that issue besides for the original Mojo (No Remote for testing) but for corrupt data streams.

For example, to get flawless Toslink performance I run my clocks in the single MHz range. But to get this max performance out of the Toslink I'm limited to only playback at 44.1 kHz.

So if I accidentally playback at 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, etc., I will get corrupt data stream noise. Fortunately, I have my mini remote control nearby and ready to hit the Mute button when this happens. I have since updated my library to only 44.1 kHz which I'm okay with because I focus solely on well-mastered Redbook. I wonder now if the Mute would mute the "White Noise" before transducer/ear damages. At least some type of fail-safe would of been nice for emergencies.
 
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Dec 14, 2023 at 2:59 PM Post #9,380 of 10,387
I'm only a casual gamer. Was very happy with my Logitech setup, but one day I thought I'd see how the Mojo2 sounded via USB from my PC. I was dumbfounded by the quality of the in game audio. The accuracy of the sound placement in game was astonishing and made it a much more immersive (and at times) anxious experience. It shouldn't have surprised me given how much the gaming industry is worth, but the audio was every bit as good (probably better) than any movie.
Like with music and movies, the audio quality of a game depends first and foremost on the attention it's been given during production. No amount of good equipment can change that, unfortunately. But, yeah, I use the same gear for gaming that I do for music listening.

Not sure what your prior Logitech setup was, but I'm confident that having the Mojo 2 in the chain has dramatically upped the overall audio quality. The only gear I swap when I switch between music and games is the pair of headphones I use. I use my Elegia set for gaming (punchy and dynamic) and my HE6se v2 set for music (imaging and detail). The Mojo 2 sounds great for both uses.
 
Dec 14, 2023 at 3:40 PM Post #9,381 of 10,387
There is a buffer on USB and it is an asynchronous transfer technology, which is what creates the latency. Direct path to CPU etc. doesn't mean much as the USB latency itself is minimal, it is the buffering on both sides that are the main bottleneck. If you have 1024 samples of buffer then you have aprox. 20ms of lag just on the transmitting end. Then add long filters in the Chord DAC etc. and you get quite a bit of latency.

In a low latency game on a low latency system the delay is typically 20-30ms from peripheral to on-screen action. Low latency monitors are typically 3-7ms of latency while "normal" monitors will typically have 15-30ms of latency. The delay on the mojo makes the sound noticeably out of sync so I wouldn't use it over USB for any kind of fast paced gaming. It is fine for slower more casual gaming where timing isn't that important.

You can still get ground plane interference as there is still a reference ground between the units, your ground is just floating. Only way to have proper galvanic isolation is to use something like an Intona or similar device or to have galvanic isolation in the USB port of the DAC (not feasible on a unit that must work from phones due to powerdraw).

I can only control what I can control. I cannot change nor control the overall USB design. And with any design, there's likely compromises along the way. Direct path to the CPU makes a difference. Tell that to Nvidia or AMD that a direct path to the CPU is minimal. Try running your Graphics Card on a non-PCIe connection and let me know if the difference is minimal. Data is data. Shortest path optimal. There are Audiophile USB devices that cater to having a direct path (PCIe) to the CPU.

For example here's a $1000 USB device. Cheap, generic clocks so I would never use but just a quick example:

jcat.png


I get your trying to point out in theory that this may be an issue, but in practice it's not. I'm glad you raised these points though.

As for Galvanic Isolation. I started thinking about this after my Soundstage improvements. I'm actually running Bulletproof Galvanic Isolation. 100% free of any Ground Plane Interference because it's decoupled by optical. 100% free of any power issues because I'm running completely Off Mains so decoupled and I'm running the best unregulated native 5V modern power supply possible with almost zero impedance. My 5V power supply destroys a car battery even if a car battery was native 5V. That's what I'm using to power my USB optical cable.

Yes a car battery is the best possible PSU - huge dynamic current, ultra low impedance and no noise. But the real benefit is batteries, and isolation from the mains, so a car battery is not needed; just use a USB power bank.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/post-15600310

For Chord Table Top Galvanic Isolation, it's not bulletproof. There's potential leakage. That's why some whom had high hopes because their Table Top DAC has "Galvanic Isolation" moved on from USB to Toslink because it's not bulletproof. Fortunately, I can stick with USB because I overcame this leakage issue.

Intona, etc. == gimmick. I'm about having a fundamentally "Off Mains" sound chain, not Marketing chains. But it takes years of Rob Watts teachings and Chord experimentation to keep things simple and fundamentally correct, so I understand it's not easy for most bombarded by Marketing propaganda and mixing in something that may work for other brands. We all go through different Chord stages with lessons to learn.

Chord users have their own Chord ecosystem so they try to do what's optimal and fundamentally sound for Chord products. Third-party products usually don't work out well especially those that are not optimal for Chord.

There's nothing out there that is close to my bulletproof galvanic isolation USB chain. I realised this only after my Soundstage improvements last month. It's not something I set out to accomplish or cared much about when I started this project. It happened naturally. Heck, I just started with I possibly have "Galvanic Isolation" theory a few days ago thanks to posters here.

But I do appreciate your response as I value other perspectives.

EDIT: Ir-regardless of USB Buffers, even read and writes dramatically outperform on hard drives, SSDs, NVMEs, etc via PCIe (Direct connection). In practice, the USB buffer latency is a non-issue whether regular USB data or USB "audio" data. The performance with a direct connection to the CPU is night and day. Graphics cards would come to a halt without a direct connection to the CPU. For users of these high performing direct connection to CPU that experience tremendous hard drives speeds, I don't think they worry too much about USB Buffers.
 
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Dec 14, 2023 at 4:29 PM Post #9,383 of 10,387
I wouldn’t identify as a “casual” gamer (since I play pretty much every day and have for almost four decades), but I definitely don’t notice any audio latency—even though I know the Mojo 2 measures at about 30ms latency. Between the unpredictable latency of an internet connection, the latency of my gaming peripherals (via bluetooth), and the inherent latency cooked into many (if not most) games, I’ve become pretty much inured to anything less than about 50ms. And that’s with a very low-latency monitor (1-3ms).

I may be wrong, but I have a hard time imagining that very many people using a Mojo 2 are also worried about sub-10ms latency for gaming. I mean, hell, my Denafrips Ares II DAC hits close to a 100ms latency. It’s bad enough that it can affect movie/TV watching. I just don’t think latency is much of a concern for most music-listening-focused DAC designers, let alone listeners.
Just because you can't tell the difference doesn't mean others can't. If you are a competitive gamer then you will easily be able tell the difference between 50ms and 25ms total input lag in a FPS game and those will also be able to tell that the sound is delayed.

Every time I've had my either my OG Mojo, Mojo 2 or RME over USB selected as output from my computer and input on my headphone amp I've wondered why hit sounds are delayed quite a bit and swapping to either internal PCI-E or optical to RME fixes it. I don't play that much competitive anymore as it takes too much time, but I still have decent reflexes and I'm also sensitive to input lag when playing FPS games online. If I'm playing a SP game then I don't care all that much, unless it is really bad, but for competitive games I notice right away that something is off.

I would say we have very different approaches to gaming as I am semi-casual now days when playing online, but sometimes swap over to competitive mode. Casual gaming isn't about the hours you put into but how you play the game and I consider pretty much all SP gaming, outside of speed running, to be casual gaming.

Bluetooth has way too much latency for competitive gaming, but the latest 2.4ghz tech is generally good enough (0.5ms extra latency on high end peripherals).

Not sure which monitor you have which has 1-3ms of latency in the real world unless you consider grey-to-grey as latency and ignore the input lag. Anything at 4ms input lag is amazing and generally require a 165hz+ monitor and good is sub 10ms. Virtually no manufacturer disclosed the input lag though, just pixel response times in a favorably measured way.
 
Dec 14, 2023 at 4:47 PM Post #9,384 of 10,387
I know Mojo 2 gets mentioned here and there in this chat but isn't this a touch off topic gents ?

I recall a chap that had very similar images of car A Pillar speakers to those posted earlier by DeeezWaaatts talking about similar stuff a bit over a year ago, different user name of course .....

Anyway, just saying !
 
Dec 14, 2023 at 4:50 PM Post #9,385 of 10,387
In my case, I have carpal tunnel so I'm very, very casual on the Gaming side.

I use a high quality trackball with my opposite hand, not a Gaming Mouse.

I think we are going off course with competive gaming arguments. Sure, there are other non-Chord products more optimal for competitive gaming or esports.

I'm just bringing up higher quality Soundstage improvements I experienced just last month that improve my Gaming experience.

No one is setting out to build the ultimate competive gaming audio rig or that having a Chord DAC for gaming makes you an elite Pro Gamer.

I don't understand where all this Monitor, Bluetooth latency comes into play. Let's just move on from anything Gaming.

I didn't join this thread to be a distraction.

I have the most optimal Toslink chain and most optimal USB optical chain for Chord DACs. I just want to see if I can replicate with a simple, value USB source in 2024 and not discuss what I already have it production. If I can't level up in Soundstage with the new USB source, then I will give up on that USB source. It should be of very good value for M2 Desktop Users if it works out.
 
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Dec 14, 2023 at 5:05 PM Post #9,387 of 10,387
How much better is mojo2 to mojo1?

Is it worth bying the mojo 2 or is mojo1 almost the same?

Mojo2 is significantly and palpably different. It's near Hugo 2 in resolution and details, but retains the musicality of the Mojo1. The UHD EQ and crossfeed are surprisingly good and useful. The intelligent desktop charging is much better than mojo1.
 
Dec 14, 2023 at 5:09 PM Post #9,388 of 10,387
I know Mojo 2 gets mentioned here and there in this chat but isn't this a touch off topic gents ?

I recall a chap that had very similar images of car A Pillar speakers to those posted earlier by DeeezWaaatts talking about similar stuff a bit over a year ago, different user name of course .....

Anyway, just saying !

I agree. I've been having health issues with all these Respiratory Diseases circulating so I tried to eliminate all hobbies.

But I took December off work and since I love this hobby, I'm trying to see how M2 users are getting along since I was feeling better and had downtime.

Unfortunately, a "Wild" health respiratory issue appeared! again while sleeping last night so I'll take a few months break until I start my USB 2024 project.

Since I have already have all the passive Off Mains decoupling tools available, I'm just trying to open the doors for another potential source option for M2 users that may makes it possible to eliminate the need for Toslink without breaking the bank.

I wish I had the discipline to quit this hobby, but it's a addiction especially after having leveled up Soundstage improvements last month after staying the course with Rob Watts fundamentally sound teachings. After that I went from read-only mode on this site once a year to everyday read-only mode. I relapsed. I'll try again to quit this hobby after experimenting with my USB 2024 project.

EDIT: Voxativ are 5 inch in size, so I'm thinking footwell more optimal. A-pillar eliminated as an option. Plus, Voxativ are close to $5k after taxes so I want to keep them in Pods to secure when needed.
 
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Dec 14, 2023 at 5:14 PM Post #9,389 of 10,387
Sorry to hear about your health issues.

Just wondering if you might get better traction and reception/buy in with this stuff on a forum that is more directly related despite that there is some Chord involvement.

Based on reading here a bit I get the impression that most people, myself included, are more interested in the day to day practical use of the Mojo and Mojo 2 rather than in depth dissection of some loosely related USB development project.

Anyway ..... that is just me, I have had my say.
 
Dec 14, 2023 at 5:43 PM Post #9,390 of 10,387
How much better is mojo2 to mojo1?

Is it worth bying the mojo 2 or is mojo1 almost the same?
I’d say it’s “different” rather than “better.” There are a couple definitive quality of life improvements (EQ, desktop mode, USB-C input, etc.), but if you’re asking about sound quality, the differences are largely about preference.
 
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