Well, thank you very much for all this information, you are really helping me a lot.
You know, when I asked you here and you gave me the answer, I really did not know anything about car audio and I understood very little of what you said.
I still do not know anything but I understand your words a little more because I went after these things and did research and my knowledge became a little more, but still only little more.
Well, about amplifier, I fully understand what you mean and why you say, I use two amps with 2ch... and I do not think I can find 4ch amp here like your asymmetrical amp.
The asymmetrical 4ch to non-identical pair of 2ch amps isn't really of absolute necessity. It just makes your life easier as it makes for fewer gain adjustments to the preamp out going to the much higher sensitivity tweeter without having to crank up the gain on the preamp going to the midwoofer if you're also sending more power to them in the first place. Not to mention they'll have more headroom before they clip instead of clipping much sooner before the tweeter, which can pretty much happen if you're not putting a lot lot power into the midwoofers and have them cranked up. The problem with just putting a lot of power into the tweeters and midwoofers is you'll exacerbate how loud the tweeter will run as well, and there's always the chance that the processor can't go down to -6dB or past that on the tweeters' preamp signal in order to get it equal to the midwoofers.
So, regarding the 4ch amp, one of the professional seller and installer told me that if you use the 4ch amp and use the processor, you can use active on the component, and remove the passive crossover of the component and install your component fully active, and Set up Twitter and woofer separately, and if you can do the same, you no longer need two of 2ch amp...
Yes you can still run full active with a symmetrical 4ch amp (or two identical 2ch amps for that matter).
But like I said above your main problem with not having way more power on the midwoofers is you're more reliant on there being enough gain control on each pair of preamp outputs out of the processor, and putting way more power into both can still make for needing more gain adjustment even if you set the tweeter channels'/amp's gain at the lowest setting.
But again, it's not like you can't ever get it right with symmetrical 4ch amps (or an identical pair of 2ch amps). Just that if I'm starting from the ground up I'd ensure more flexibility in being able to get them equal, whether it's putting more power into the midwoofers or having a processor that can go past -6dB on the tweeter channels (or both).
...but again, I think two of 2ch amps can be better.
If you can use two different amps and use a more powerful amp for the midwoofers, then yes, that's a good idea.
Anyways you have an installer doing to the work for you so he'll figure out the wiring, like getting a nice distribution block so you can have three 8ga to 4ga 12V+ cables and three GND cables, plus the power switch trigger. I had a friend before who ordered a three-amp distro block that's supposed to go right on the battery, he installed it, wired it up, and...then he slammed the hood closed and cracked the block LOL (he never checked for clearance LOL). At least your installer is a pro, he's gonna check issues like that, not to mention he's probably got a distribution block that takes a 4ga cable so he can split the power away from the battery terminal/ I don't really think that would actually affect power unless you're pushing for very high power use (like bass dB competitions), I just personally prefer keeping amp lines separate the whole way since multiple 8ga cables are usually easier to get past the firewall at different points than a single 4ga with thick AF insulation.
Of course, this seller that I told about, the amp that he offered me is an expensive Helix H400X for AudioSystem AE650C and STEG MT650C II, which is expensive for me, I can not buy it... it's over priced for me.
Btw that he suggested a stronger amplifier (Helix C Four) for stronger speakers (STEG ME650C II) And he said that for STEG ME650C II, you must get a powerful amp like Helix C Four and not Helix H400X !
Can't find enough info on the speakers but if the sensitivity is at least 90dB as a system you might be able to get away with just 70w from the H400X. Just note that component speakers' sensitivity rating is typically that of the midwoofer, as the passive crossovers attenuate the tweeter output, even on the terminals not marked with -XdB, because otherwise that tweeter is always higher sensitivity than the midwoofer or midbass and midrange in the same set.
As for the more expensive amp, that one isn't just more expensive because it's a better amp with more power, but also because the C Four has DSP. Which if you're using a separate DSP is redundant, and I don't even know how to use this as the only DSP - I don't see any pass through subwoofer channel outputs on it to connect to a subwoofer, just that it has SPDIF input.
As for getting more power...there's the Helix M Six. Bridge two channels to run the midwoofers, then the remaining stereo pair can run the tweeters. Problem: some fullrange class D aren't recommended for bridging into anything but a subwoofer because distortion is higher or they really just sound tinny when bridged (ie in terms of % THD might not be too high but it's audible and makes the sound audibly leaner), so maybe that's one reason why he didn't pitch that to you.
In any case, shop around a bit more and check other stores, but make sure they can do custom installations instead of just sticking the tweeters on the dash because proper installation and tuning can be even more critical for everything other than sheer tonal quality (for one, even if you have the right speaker and amp pairing, if you're getting a lot of reflections in the car the warm sound can have piercing high frequencies since in a car sibilance has much, much, much more to do with reflections than mere output/response imbalance).
I'm not really sure if for these components should have strong amplifiers like these two Helix models and of course, keep in mind that this seller offers me what he has and he has so many limited products right now that maybe with these words and tips he just wants to sell them to me.
The 85wpc off one of them should be fine for most given I don't have the exact sensitivity rating for the component set much less just the midwoofer.
Up to a point, damping factor will matter a lot more given the mounts in a car aren't tuned enclosures to dampen driver movement (even if these are designed for effectively free air operation). The problem there is damping factor isn't always stated and even if they were the methodology for how they got them are not always comparable as this can have a lot to do with the load impedance that the amp has to run, so for the most part car audio guys just go off others' assessment of "what has punch but doesn't turn the low end into a mudslide."
You know, these are the amplifiers I can buy for component. These fit into my budget:
-2X 2ch DLS CC2 ( This is the cheapest option to buy to of DLS CC2 )
-Rockford P400-4
-Rockford R300x4
-Mosconi Gladen AS 100.4
-Gladen XL150c4
Mosconi and Gladen are more expensive than other options.
Haven't listened to any of those. I do have experience with RFs and DLS, and I've practically stopped liking RF after the :BBQ Grill" and "Batman" models that had a lot of Class A bias, had very low noise, good tone, etc, but can either break if you're constantly stuck in traffic with the sun out (as the sun turns the trunk into an oven) or add to heat in the cabin (I met a guy before that installed them right under the third row seat A/C vents and pointed them right at the amps).
My safe choice among those then would be the DLS. Haven't listened to those specifically but if I had to buy any of those without listening to any of them I'd gamble on DLS.
Did you bring your headphone set up for the installer to listen to so he'd be more familiar with what general sound you want to get out of the car's system?
And as for the amp, one thing you said that I can set twitters on 2x50w or 2x75w and the midwoofers on 2x150 but there is a point that these amplifiers that I mentioned are not 150 except for Gladen XL150c4 which I heard is much weaker than Mosconi Gladen AS 100.4.
Well, with these situation and for doing what you said should I choose an 150 watts rms amp?
I'm not sure why the XL150c4 would be "weaker" than the AS100.4. They're the same brand, so the methodology for getting the power rating
should be comparable.
"
Should," but of course with some exceptions. Like how Yamaha can rate even a lower tier receiver as "150w x 7" and a higher tier amp as "185w x 7," but the lower tier model has a a fine print that would say something like "measured at 1000hz, 1% THD,
one channel loaded," meaning once you actually have it in a 5.1 or 7.1 system with five or seven channels running simultaneously, the actual rms output could be lower, not to mention they tested it at such a high distortion level you're not likely to actually use the amp that loud if you care about the sound. Kind of like how some laptops can claim they have a full power GPU but the mosfets, cooling system, and sometimes even the power brick might not actually be able to sustain the GPU and CPU running loaded at the same time (which is why games that really load both the CPU and GPU like Total War and some FPS games can tend to be much slower on a laptop vs desktop on say FPS games that barely load the CPU or strategy games that mostly only load the CPU).
That said, even Yamaha wouldn't rate the higher tier receiver's amp for lower output than the lower tier amp with the weaker power supply design, and as it is I have no reason to think that Mosconi does something like this. If anything, the higher price for lower output could be due to other factors, like
1. The higher tier amp having only the heatsinks on the chassis, which can be very expensive to make, whereas the lower tier amp has active cooling ie I see fans on one side.
2.
Maybe the higher tier amp has lower distortion and noise, so when you're driving speakers the lower tier amp can get louder but has a noticeably thinner sound. It's like how when I brought my NAD 304 to a shop to try it out with their tower speakers, and despite being rated for 35watts x 2ch, it sounded more like real music vs a Yamaha receiver with "175w x 7ch" driving the same 86dB/1watt at 1m tower speakers.
Mosconi website has the datasheet for the AS 100.4 and they state "target power" and "effective power," which can either mean the first is peak power while the lower, effective power is continuous output; or the effective power is the output level where they measured the S/N ratio.
3.
Maybe you may have just misinterpreted what the shop said about these amps? Because there is one way where the 100.4 is has more output: when bridged and driving a 2ohm load, where it can produce 480watts. The 160.4 is not rated to even be capable of running stable when bridged into a 2ohm load, and can only be bridged into a 4ohm load, at which point it produces 450watts. This is only relevant for running a subwoofer, and if you're using the 4ch amp to have each channel running one tweeter or one midwoofer (and then have a second amp to run the subwoofer) then that bridged into a 2ohm load rating doesn't really matter.
Well, with these situation and for doing what you said should I choose an 150 watts rms amp?
Always take the manufacturer rating as a maximum RMS or peak output, even from decent manufacturers; from manufacturers like the bootleg "////////ALPINE" amps that were all the rage back in the 2000s as they were rated for "250w x 4ch / 1000w" I wouldn't even assume that is peak burst power.
If you're saying things that seem to make the ratings confusing it might be because the installer you're talking to is spouting some confused stuff that audio people have had since around the 1990s, that being, some amps are claimed to be "underrated" by consumers. This isn't exclusive to car audio people talking about old school Soundstream Class A or hybrid topology Class A (asymmetrical amps where two channels are low power Class A for tweeters, in some cases two more channels could be Class A too but with higher power, but it can have other channels for midwoofers or subwoofers that are Class A/B) amps, even home audio people have claimed my NAD 304 produces more power than the 35w X 2ch rating says.
The reality here isn't that Rockford Fosgate "Batman" and "BBQ Grill" amps are
not rated for more power. They just have lower distortion and noise and run with more Class A bias and so can sound better. Note that sheer Class A bias is not always a guarantee that they'd do better if the power is inadequate, for example some old Marantz amps have a switch to go to pure Class A output which makes the midrange sound better but run Metallica on it with anything lower than 90dB/1mW sensitivity and you'll hear the bass drum notes clipping if you have it cranked up. In such cases a very high power Class A/B can sound more dynamic and more like music since the low end wouldn't go "thwack!" on bass drum notes (this is also why those old 5ch and 6ch Soundstreams only have Class A on two channels for the tweeter).
For context, this is the RF amps I'm talking about and when the end caps are installed they look like...
...the older Batman logo...
...while the "BBQ Grill" amps had very tall but not very thin heatsink fins that make them look like what you'd use to put diamond char patterns on a piece of shortloin primal.
So it does not do that with amplifiers DLS CC2 or Rockford P400-4 or Mosconi Gladen AS 100.4?
What exactly do you mean they don't do? Produce 150w per channel? They won't, the manufacturer does not even claim they do.
What I'm saying about putting as much as 150w into the midwoofers is again because of how much higher the sensitivity of the tweeter is and how that will affect not having the crossover attenuating it. Even the plain terminals on the crossover (in case it has any terminals with -XdB on them) attenuate the tweeters' output, the terminals marked with "-XdB" just attenuate them even more.
"But if that's what happens if I run full active, why even run full active?" Again, because proper aiming of the tweeters doesn't solve the problem that you'll hear the driver side tweeter followed by the driver side midwoofer then the passenger side tweeter then the passenger side midwoofer then finally the subwoofer, all out of sync enough to screw up the sound and add sibilance or make the bass soft and loose (even with a good sealed box on the sub) without being obviously out of sync. Having their analogue amplification separate means you can have the DSP splitting up the signal and then apply time delays so everything arrives at your head at the same time as the output from the subwoofer (which is normally way out back). This can remove sibilance and tighten the bass, but again, now you run the risk of having a very high sensitivity (by comparison) tweeter getting the same amount of power as a much lower sensitivity midwoofer.
And about the Subwoofer, let me ask you something.
My car is a Peugeot 206 hatchback.
I don't want very, very strong sub and bass that the bass is very showy and more of a bass music, you know.
I want a high quality, musical bass that responds quickly and exactly in tune with the music an be very accurate
A soft and balanced and decent bass that only compensates for the weakness of the components for not having a bass.
You know, i really don't like the sub to shake the car and its seats at all, I just want the subwoofer to make up for the lack of component bass.
And i need that to be completely high quality and musical and play the bass in sync with the music.
Not powerful bass to impress others... Just a decent and balanced bass for the music.
Choose a decent subwoofer and more importantly
make sure the sealed box is properly made, meaning the correct air volume inside the box but accounting for bracing as you need a box just short of too stiff as to rattle for being stiff (as opposed to having the panels wobbling around). Personally, given this means "small air volume," I'd just go with having it fiberglassed into a corner of the trunk instead of a box that can plop around. I don't mean when the back is opened the whole thing is painted fiberglass - I just mean you have it molded to the corner of the trunk to keep it out of the way (unless the width of the trunk to the very back of the car is more important to you, ex certain sports equipment getting loaded that are better off in that section).
That will be an irregular shape though and initially will be a bit too large but the filler can just be additional bracing, then more speaker box filler since it won't have MDF on the rear. Then get it covered in automotive carpet so it blends in the trunk.
Something like these but get a grill to protect the sub. Don't worry about the brand - I had a Kicker grill over my Polk Audio before.
Past that, don't forget the amplifier. Just because you're not trying to crack your windshield doesn't mean 100w is enough all the time. You have to take the subwoofer's sensitivity vis a vis the tweeters' and midwoofers' sensitivity into account just like with how I'd much rather put a bit of extra power into the midwoofers. Get a fair bit more power into the midwoofer vs the tweeter and into the subwoofer vs the midwoofer, and you can crank the gain a little bit higher before hitting the amplifier's limit
.
Note: this doesn't mean you'll never hit X-Max just because you have a good amp, it just means you can set the gain higher so you can match the more efficient driver/s in the system. This can potentially mean you'll hit X-Max sooner as per unity gain setting (ie the primary volume control on the receiver or DSP, or on the receiver controlling the DSP if you get an ///////ALPINE DSP), but after setting the normal gain on the midwoofer the next step is to match the midwoofer to the tweeter then the sub to to both. Meaning even IF
you can potentially hit X-Max on the bigger drivers sooner, if you've got a good balance in output between all drivers and can get to a point where you can damage your eardrums long before the drivers hit X-Max, then the slightly higher gain isn't really a problem. Again, matching the output on all drivers is the more important bit.
And that I can not get subwoofer for dash in my car.
Well that's really more of whether you bought a car that has it (like Nissans with the Bose systems, or Jaguars with the B&W system) or you're willing to have a shop do that.
If you're not willing to have the dash gutted to mold a fiberglass enclosure in there to house a shallow depth 8in subwoofer and have fewer localization issues, then just do the thing I described above. You just need to be aware of the possibility that even
if you have a DSP, the box isn't too large nor a large ported box built around a really good subwoofer, etc,
there is no absolute guarantee that you'll get the "high quality" bass you want.
Why? Because out in the back even if you use time alignment all that does is sync all the other tweeters and midwoofers with the subwoofer. However these are all either fully automatic if your DSP has a tuning microphone and automatic tuning, input in distance to each driver then computed by the DSP or microseconds of delay manually input by whoever is doing the tuning - these do not take into account other acoustic issues like how the rear seat and if there are any speaker holes behind the rear passenger headrests etc affect how the bass from the compartment gets to you. Not to mention the tactile aspect of it - if you feel the bass on the back of your seat then psychologically your capability to perceive it coming from the dash where the other instruments is already crippled.
While I will always say have a DSP, it's more like the sense of me saying "at least always have a pistol." The pistol can't guarantee nobody will shoot you first or that you won't get taken out by a sniper,
but at least there are other situations where it can be a deterrent. The DSP can't absolutely correct every problem in every car,
but you can correct and mitigate at the very least, even if you can't get it to image the bass up front it should at least not sound like a landslide and might sound like it's near the front of the car.
I Can get a subwoofer with box for the trunk or an active model under the seat.
I'd avoid the slim, plastic enclosure underseat subs. The cone surface areas are too small and the amps aren't really all that good, but the worst problem is putting these inside the cabin can actually make localization of the source of the bass worse. Like if you put it under your seat and the tactility of the bass under your buttocks is a sure tip off to your body that the bass is coming from there, so psychologically, it's harder to hear the bass like it's coming from elsewhere. Putting it under the passenger seat won't be a huge improvement in most cabins either.
Not that these can't ever work right, just that each particular car cabin has more variances with other models' than rooms do if you control for room size and whether the speakers can be placed the same distance from the walls you might as well pay for installing it out back and gamble on the DSP being enough to handle the rest.
And the good models that are available for the trunk with box are these:
Image Dynamics ID 8 or 10
Image Dynamics IDQ 8 or 10
Gladen SQX 8 or 10
Rockford Fosgate P300 - Active model - 8 or 10
Rockford P1 and P2 and P3
DLS Nordica 10i
I do not know which one to choose.
I'd get either of the IDs or the DLS. Check where you want it to go in the trunk and see if mounting depth variances might be relevant (ie if the magnet and basket are too large the performance might be better, but they'll require more mounting depth and can stick out more).
