Amplification and Planar-Magnetic Headphones' purely resistive impedance

Mar 27, 2015 at 5:50 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 20

DreamKing

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Hello,
 
I have a question regarding amplifying planar magnetic headphones. If I have an amp outputting 4W max power, will it feed purely resistive planar magnetic headphones at that 4W of output regardless of impedance, so essentially all that matters is the sensitivity?
 
Thanks!

DK
 
Mar 27, 2015 at 5:57 PM Post #2 of 20
I'm no engineer, but I don't know of any amplifier that delivers the same wattage across different impedances. Maybe there is one out there, but look at different amplifier specs (speaker or headphone amp), and you'll find that the power output is different depending on the impedance.
 
Mar 27, 2015 at 5:58 PM Post #3 of 20
From what I understand, you always need to look at the amp's output power into a certain impedance. A less powerful and more powerful amp will output the same power into a headphone at any given SPL level. If you know how to calculate your headphone's power requirements (ask me if you need help or just consult this site), it's easy to find an amp powerful enough to reach the SPL levels you want. (Also taking into account dynamic peaks, which can be as high as 30 dB, but usually not much.)
 
Mar 27, 2015 at 6:27 PM Post #4 of 20
  From what I understand, you always need to look at the amp's output power into a certain impedance. A less powerful and more powerful amp will output the same power into a headphone at any given SPL level. If you know how to calculate your headphone's power requirements (ask me if you need help or just consult this site), it's easy to find an amp powerful enough to reach the SPL levels you want. (Also taking into account dynamic peaks, which can be as high as 30 dB, but usually not much.)

 
I'm asking for the HE-560 which has 90.0 dB SPL/mW. The thing is I know my amp outputs 4W max but don't know at what impedance. I thought planars, being purely resistive wouldn't change the power being delivered based on the impedance. I guess I'll have to test the headphones when I get them. Or I could find someone to get me the actual power of my amp at ~50 ohm. 
 
Mar 27, 2015 at 6:36 PM Post #5 of 20
I think I understand the OP, but I think you are only looking at it from the headphone side, not the amp side. Yes, it's true the HE560 doesn't change impedance with frequency: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMANHE5602014.pdf

HOWEVER, you still need to know how much power your amp can output into 43 Ohms. If you amp is rated at 4 Watts at 8 Ohms, that doesn't tells us what it can output into 43 Ohms. A resistive load is not zero load - the amp still sees 43 Ohms.
 
Mar 27, 2015 at 6:59 PM Post #6 of 20
  I'm asking for the HE-560 which has 90.0 dB SPL/mW. The thing is I know my amp outputs 4W max but don't know at what impedance. I thought planars, being purely resistive wouldn't change the power being delivered based on the impedance. I guess I'll have to test the headphones when I get them. Or I could find someone to get me the actual power of my amp at ~50 ohm. 

 
Yeah, the Beresford Capella doesn't list the specs in detail...but I'm 99% sure it has more than enough power for the HE-560. For some reason, the power requirements of HiFiMAN headphones seem to work differently than normal headphones. I calculated that it needs 1,000 mW at 50 ohms to reach 120 dB...but this link says it needs 1,500 mW. Go figure. It's not likely that the amp can't handle that, and you may not need to reach 120 dB for dynamic peaks anyway. You'll need ten times less power to handle 110 dB, so you should be fine.
 
Mar 27, 2015 at 7:03 PM Post #7 of 20
   
Yeah, the Beresford Capella doesn't list the specs in detail...but I'm 99% sure it has more than enough power for the HE-560. For some reason, the power requirements of HiFiMAN headphones seem to work differently than normal headphones. I calculated that it needs 1,000 mW at 50 ohms to reach 120 dB...but this link says it needs 1,500 mW. Go figure. It's not likely that the amp can't handle that, and you may not need to reach 120 dB for dynamic peaks anyway. You'll need ten times less power to handle 110 dB, so you should be fine.

 
I appreciate it, friend 
beerchug.gif
.  I'll be be hearing the combination next week, so hoping for the best. 
 
Mar 27, 2015 at 7:05 PM Post #8 of 20
 Power output on amplifiers at different impedances is simply ohms law. The power available is proportional to the impedance of the headphone the higher the impedance the lower the power.
 
Mar 27, 2015 at 7:14 PM Post #9 of 20
  I appreciate it, friend 
beerchug.gif
.  I'll be be hearing the combination next week, so hoping for the best. 

 
Remember our chat about the JVC HA-SZ2000? I canceled my order so I could afford a Sennheiser HD 700! I also plan on getting the HiFiMAN HE-500 and STAX SR-207 in the next month or two. I can always get the SZ2K in the future...but it was taking forever to ship and I didn't want to miss the epic opportunities I was presented with. Looks like we're both going out on a limb, so to speak.
 
Mar 27, 2015 at 7:33 PM Post #10 of 20
   
Remember our chat about the JVC HA-SZ2000? I canceled my order so I could afford a Sennheiser HD 700! I also plan on getting the HiFiMAN HE-500 and STAX SR-207 in the next month or two. I can always get the SZ2K in the future...but it was taking forever to ship and I didn't want to miss the epic opportunities I was presented with. Looks like we're both going out on a limb, so to speak.

 
Well, I guess I can find some reassurance in the fact that I know someone that listened to his LCD-2F's fed from the Capella and thought the sound was amazing. LCD-2 is 70 ohms, HE-560 is 50 ohm. There is a 10 db difference in sensitivity between them (LCD2: 101db/mW, HE-560: 90). So I'm not going as blindly as I thought. Yes it's going to be harder to drive but someone else told me that it powered their LCD-2 very easily. So I've got good hopes for what I'll hear.
 
Mar 27, 2015 at 10:16 PM Post #11 of 20
The 10 dB difference in sensitivity is the key. Low sensitivity needs an amp capable of high voltage output. Ray Samuels talks about this in the description of The Dark Star: http://www.raysamuelsaudio.com/products/dark-star

It's also discussed here with respect to the HE-6: http://www.head-fi.org/t/529873/amps-that-can-drive-the-hifiman-he-6-planar-headphones/2565#post_10326971
 
Mar 27, 2015 at 11:47 PM Post #12 of 20
 
  I'm asking for the HE-560 which has 90.0 dB SPL/mW. The thing is I know my amp outputs 4W max but don't know at what impedance. I thought planars, being purely resistive wouldn't change the power being delivered based on the impedance. I guess I'll have to test the headphones when I get them. Or I could find someone to get me the actual power of my amp at ~50 ohm. 

 
Yeah, the Beresford Capella doesn't list the specs in detail...but I'm 99% sure it has more than enough power for the HE-560. For some reason, the power requirements of HiFiMAN headphones seem to work differently than normal headphones. I calculated that it needs 1,000 mW at 50 ohms to reach 120 dB...but this link says it needs 1,500 mW. Go figure. It's not likely that the amp can't handle that, and you may not need to reach 120 dB for dynamic peaks anyway. You'll need ten times less power to handle 110 dB, so you should be fine.

 
You should be correct, but it's probably a rounding error.  Or, it's quite possible the SPL for the HE-560 is not exactly a straight exponential relationship.  At any rate, remember that we're dealing with exponents when using dB.  At 1000mW, the next 10dB increase will need 10,000mW total (130dB)!  At 120dB, an increase of only ~1.765dB will need another 500mW resulting in 1500mW total.
 
   Power output on amplifiers at different impedances is simply ohms law. The power available is proportional to the impedance of the headphone the higher the impedance the lower the power.

 
Actually, no.  The power required by the headphone load is a function of its sensitivity and the sound pressure level desired.  It's impedance determines the makeup needed of the vector quantities, voltage and current - that's Ohm's Law.
 
The power output of an amplifier depends on its design as to whether it can supply a certain power at a certain impedance.  Ohm's Law still dictates, but it has to be applied to the internal circuitry as to whether it can supply certain quantities of voltage vs. current for load impedance.
 
The 10 dB difference in sensitivity is the key. Low sensitivity needs an amp capable of high voltage output. Ray Samuels talks about this in the description of The Dark Star: http://www.raysamuelsaudio.com/products/dark-star

It's also discussed here with respect to the HE-6: http://www.head-fi.org/t/529873/amps-that-can-drive-the-hifiman-he-6-planar-headphones/2565#post_10326971

 
No.  Sensitivity has no bearing whatsoever on what voltage vs. current is required.  That's dictated by the impedance of the load.
 
Let's say for the HE-560 at 120dB it needs 1500mW -
 
If its impedance is 50 ohms, then Current = sqrt(Power/Resistance), or sqrt(0.03), Current = 173ma.  Voltage =  8.66V  (which is what the HiFiMAN link says)
 
If its impedance is 32 ohms, then Current = sqrt(.047), Current = 217ma.  Voltage = 6.93V
 
If its impedance is 300 ohms, then Current = sqrt(.005), Current = 70.7ma.  Voltage = 21.2V!
 
All of those impedances above are at 1500mW power, while the current ranges from 217ma down to 70.7ma.  Meanwhile, the voltage ranges from 6.93V to 21.2V!
 
A particular amp may not be able to provide the higher currents needed at low impedance or the high voltage needed at higher impedance - to meet that 1500mW. 
 
Mar 28, 2015 at 12:07 AM Post #13 of 20
Every time I try to get involved in one of these power discussions, I say something that isn't right - but I think I'm just not clearly saying what I mean.

I wasn't talking about what happens if you vary the impedance. We were talking about the HE-560. So, in my mind I was fixing the impedance of the load at ~50 Ohms. If you fix the impedance, and decrease the sensitivity, then doesn't the voltage required to hit the same SPL have to increase? That's all I was really trying to say. Is that still wrong?
 
Mar 28, 2015 at 12:26 AM Post #14 of 20
Every time I try to get involved in one of these power discussions, I say something that isn't right - but I think I'm just not clearly saying what I mean.

I wasn't talking about what happens if you vary the impedance. We were talking about the HE-560. So, in my mind I was fixing the impedance of the load at ~50 Ohms. If you fix the impedance, and decrease the sensitivity, then doesn't the voltage required to hit the same SPL have to increase? That's all I was really trying to say. Is that still wrong?


No and yes - it's still wrong.  The proportion of voltage vs. current will remain the same as long as the impedance remains the same - regardless of the power level.
 
It may be that the headphone amplifier can't continue to provide that mix at all power levels, but the headphone won't care - it'll just clip the amp.
 
Mar 28, 2015 at 1:24 AM Post #15 of 20
There's a few things going on here that may be causing confusion - and I'm to blame as well.

Sensitivity can be confusing depending on which way you're approaching it. Let's stick with more or less power, instead.

The relationship, voltage times current = power, is linear. If you can remember back to your high school algebra and geometry, this means if you drew an x-y graph of power with voltage and current as the axes, it would be a straight line. The angle of that line (slope) would be determined by the impedance. It defines the ratio of voltage vs current needed to make that line.

As you move up and down that Power line, the ratio of voltage to current never changes, but their individual values can vary up and down - proportionally - as the power is increased or decreased.

So yes, the voltage will decrease if power is decreased, but the current will also decrease - exactly in the proportion dictated by the impedance.
 

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