DJINFERNO806
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Yes and offers no software features that people actually want for gaming or just to personalize their audio...
The Nameless Guide To PC Gaming Audio (with binaural headphone surround sound)
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SaLX
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They were beautifully eloquent in their description of impedance and Ohms (lol) - Realising that they weren't being at all helpful, they winged it and promised to do another vid to explain it all (once they actually read up on it).
Another thing .. impedance mismatch doesn't cause bass to go 'missing'. What?
Another thing .. impedance mismatch doesn't cause bass to go 'missing'. What?
No comment on anything about EMI, ohms, their apparently driver-less DAC, or the veiled sales pitch.
I think the only valid argument in this video was as follows:
Trust game developers to provide the best possible experience via 'headphones mode' and deliver signals to your sound media with the least amount of molestation possible.
This is the same mentality of folks who kill every single mob in dungeons, every time, because 'it was the way the developers meant it to be played'. I've always preferred the option of choice myself and stayed away from anything with rails or a strict linear progression. But, I acknowledge these folks exist and that's their thing.
I tend not to group with them, however.
I think the only valid argument in this video was as follows:
Trust game developers to provide the best possible experience via 'headphones mode' and deliver signals to your sound media with the least amount of molestation possible.
This is the same mentality of folks who kill every single mob in dungeons, every time, because 'it was the way the developers meant it to be played'. I've always preferred the option of choice myself and stayed away from anything with rails or a strict linear progression. But, I acknowledge these folks exist and that's their thing.
I tend not to group with them, however.
NamelessPFG
Headphoneus Supremus
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Trusting game developers to implement a good headphone mix would force me to play with the audio equivalent of having blinders on...unless that game is Battlefield: Bad Company 2, then it's more like being outright blindfolded because of the practically nonexistent positioning.
It's pretty clear to me that most of them see audio as that one feature on the checklist to just get out of the way, and if they do give it any attention, it's usually toward the sound samples and overall mixing for surround speaker systems, with headphones being an afterthought.
Of course, I shouldn't blame them too hard; software development is difficult, and the reason A3D, DirectSound3D and OpenAL existed was to make their lives easier in implementing 3D audio. I'm not sure what they saw in FMOD Ex and Wwise, but it must've been much easier for them somehow; I just wish those respective middlewares had some decent headphone mixing out of the box without also having to slip in that AstoundSound plugin from GenAudio.
The good news about AstoundSound is that it IS a plugin for both FMOD and Wwise, meaning it already has most of the gaming industry covered, so we just have to make our voices heard and tell developers to invest in it.
For that matter, all this talk of impedance mismatches bothers me, because a lot of it is certainly FUD; I just don't know WHICH statements are myths and lies. One thing I do recall on reading the blog that started this trend was that impedance mismatches mainly tend to mean uncontrolled (not necessarily missing, sometimes it'll be too boomy) bass, particularly on Sennheiser sets with whacked-out impedance curves. Other sets with flat impedance curves aren't really bothered by it.
Then there's the all-too-common issue of people thinking headphone impedance = sensitivity, when we all know that's not the case. Just because the 32-ohm Beyerdynamics and the AKG 70x line have low impedances doesn't mean people around here recommend you go trying to use them without some decent amplification.
If anything, I do admit that one thing I like about the niche, expensive and exclusive electrostatic amp market is that I don't have to worry about all this impedance talk in that field...though that just brings up new things like voltage swing, slew rate and other stuff that flies over my head since I'm not an electrical engineer and not all that concerned about exactly what it is that makes the Blue Hawaii SE better than all the other 'stat amps if a "lowly" SRM-T1 can still put out some good sound.
It's pretty clear to me that most of them see audio as that one feature on the checklist to just get out of the way, and if they do give it any attention, it's usually toward the sound samples and overall mixing for surround speaker systems, with headphones being an afterthought.
Of course, I shouldn't blame them too hard; software development is difficult, and the reason A3D, DirectSound3D and OpenAL existed was to make their lives easier in implementing 3D audio. I'm not sure what they saw in FMOD Ex and Wwise, but it must've been much easier for them somehow; I just wish those respective middlewares had some decent headphone mixing out of the box without also having to slip in that AstoundSound plugin from GenAudio.
The good news about AstoundSound is that it IS a plugin for both FMOD and Wwise, meaning it already has most of the gaming industry covered, so we just have to make our voices heard and tell developers to invest in it.
For that matter, all this talk of impedance mismatches bothers me, because a lot of it is certainly FUD; I just don't know WHICH statements are myths and lies. One thing I do recall on reading the blog that started this trend was that impedance mismatches mainly tend to mean uncontrolled (not necessarily missing, sometimes it'll be too boomy) bass, particularly on Sennheiser sets with whacked-out impedance curves. Other sets with flat impedance curves aren't really bothered by it.
Then there's the all-too-common issue of people thinking headphone impedance = sensitivity, when we all know that's not the case. Just because the 32-ohm Beyerdynamics and the AKG 70x line have low impedances doesn't mean people around here recommend you go trying to use them without some decent amplification.
If anything, I do admit that one thing I like about the niche, expensive and exclusive electrostatic amp market is that I don't have to worry about all this impedance talk in that field...though that just brings up new things like voltage swing, slew rate and other stuff that flies over my head since I'm not an electrical engineer and not all that concerned about exactly what it is that makes the Blue Hawaii SE better than all the other 'stat amps if a "lowly" SRM-T1 can still put out some good sound.
chicolom
Headphoneus Supremus
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That Teksyndicate video was a bit dissapointing.
First off though, there were a some good things mentioned, such as:
Unfortunately, most of the rest of the video was a bit misleading.
Soundcards
In order to automatically disqualify most soundcards they focus on WAY over exaggerating the effects of output impedance. He actually said that with a 10 ohm ouput impedance "1/3 of the signal is going to be GONE" and "1/3 of the music is being dropped".
He cites output impedance like it's the determing factor in how good an amp is. I'd like to see them compare the E09K and O2 in a blind test. It should be incredibly easy to spot the E09K as it's dropping 1/3 of the music, right?
You guys said your going to be "busting as many audiophile myths as possible", but are you sure these statements on output impedance effects aren't just reinforcing or even creating new myths?
Next he says, YES soundcards have amps but why would you even need a dedicated amp when most headphones are only 32 ohms? Even the Hifiman HE500s are only 38 ohms! So these days you don't really need an amp, and your onboard audio will be just fine - even for the Hifimans. "These days most heapdhones are under 80ohms. That means they're efficient and they don't need extra power. Unless your nuts you don't need more power than that."
Hmm..are you sure your not neglecting to mention some things, like why low impedance ≠ easy to drive with headphones like Hifimans (and other Planars), Beyerdynamics, AKGs, etc?
Oh BTW, you should buy an O2 though! (please disregard everything just mentioned about NOT needing an amp).
DSPs
Throughout the video they basically skip over the WHOLE POINT of why you would use a gaming soundcard, which is for their DSP processing (such as CMSS, Dolby Headphone, SBX pro, etc). They say that your motherboard audio can do everything a gaming soundcard can do, and that using optical from a soundcard like a Xonar "is the same exact digital signal you'll get from your motherboard's optical out". Yeah - except one has has a surround DSP and the other doesn't.
Then he says "I guess the only benefit from using the soundcard is they can use the software that came with it. But that's all in Windows anyways, so..." O RLY? Windows already comes with Dolby Headphone, CMSS, and SBX Pro built in? Good to know.
They say it doesn't make any sense to use surround DSPs anyways if you have a good pair of headphones. Just use regular stereo and your brain will put everything into place!
Sorry, I don't believe you. A quick 5 second test shows that a good surround DSP > basic stereo for 3D positioning. The vast majority of people who've tried both would agree.
Don't believe use? Just watch this binaural recording video. If you go to your game options and set the sound to "headphones" it will "take the signal and make it so it's binaural".
I wish that were true. I wish selecting "headphones" = binaural audio in games. Maybe in the future that will be possible, but for now that's NOT the case. BTW, If anything that virtual barbershop video is an endorsement for USING surround DSPS and NOT using basic stereo.
I know they meant well with the video, but I think they created just as many myths as they busted.
The obvious irony of the whole video is that they start off saying that they're tired of the "audiophile snobbery" and that they're going to be getting rid of some of the snobbery in the audiophile world - but then they basically spout audiophile snobbery for the rest of the video.
He says that he only wants to get the most pure experience for gaming as the developers intended it, so NO surround sound DSPS, NO EQing, NO gaming headsets, and NO amps with ~10 ohm ouput impedance. They all color the sound, so all of them be damned. Ironically, those are exactly the sort of things an audiphile snob would say, and his "only pure and uncolored sound" viewpoint is about as snobbish as you can get.
He only want's the most pure experience, which is why he's getting an ODAC...for gaming.
Enjoy your "pure" gaming experience in basic stereo, and I'll enjoy my "colored" gaming experience in surround sound. I might even EQ in some bass!
Logan seems to be a little too gullible and easily influenced by what he's told regarding audio. While I'm glad that he's no longer brainwashed by the gaming companies, he's now simply brainwashed in the other direction by an audiophile company.
"I will never use another soundcard. I just want to be happy with my audio setup." He's left "ignorant gamer land" and has entered ignorant audiophile land instead. If ignorance is bliss though, he'll be happy either way.
First off though, there were a some good things mentioned, such as:
- Avoid using the audio headers on the front of the case.
- Using an external DAC/amp is preferable to an internal one (for noise reasons).
- Try to find yourself a good pair of headphones instead of opting for an inexpensive gaming headset.
- Use the optical out from the motherboard if you have it.
Unfortunately, most of the rest of the video was a bit misleading.
Soundcards
In order to automatically disqualify most soundcards they focus on WAY over exaggerating the effects of output impedance. He actually said that with a 10 ohm ouput impedance "1/3 of the signal is going to be GONE" and "1/3 of the music is being dropped".
You guys said your going to be "busting as many audiophile myths as possible", but are you sure these statements on output impedance effects aren't just reinforcing or even creating new myths?
Next he says, YES soundcards have amps but why would you even need a dedicated amp when most headphones are only 32 ohms? Even the Hifiman HE500s are only 38 ohms! So these days you don't really need an amp, and your onboard audio will be just fine - even for the Hifimans. "These days most heapdhones are under 80ohms. That means they're efficient and they don't need extra power. Unless your nuts you don't need more power than that."
Hmm..are you sure your not neglecting to mention some things, like why low impedance ≠ easy to drive with headphones like Hifimans (and other Planars), Beyerdynamics, AKGs, etc?
Oh BTW, you should buy an O2 though! (please disregard everything just mentioned about NOT needing an amp).
DSPs
Throughout the video they basically skip over the WHOLE POINT of why you would use a gaming soundcard, which is for their DSP processing (such as CMSS, Dolby Headphone, SBX pro, etc). They say that your motherboard audio can do everything a gaming soundcard can do, and that using optical from a soundcard like a Xonar "is the same exact digital signal you'll get from your motherboard's optical out". Yeah - except one has has a surround DSP and the other doesn't.
Then he says "I guess the only benefit from using the soundcard is they can use the software that came with it. But that's all in Windows anyways, so..." O RLY? Windows already comes with Dolby Headphone, CMSS, and SBX Pro built in? Good to know.
They say it doesn't make any sense to use surround DSPs anyways if you have a good pair of headphones. Just use regular stereo and your brain will put everything into place!
Don't believe use? Just watch this binaural recording video. If you go to your game options and set the sound to "headphones" it will "take the signal and make it so it's binaural".
I know they meant well with the video, but I think they created just as many myths as they busted.
The obvious irony of the whole video is that they start off saying that they're tired of the "audiophile snobbery" and that they're going to be getting rid of some of the snobbery in the audiophile world - but then they basically spout audiophile snobbery for the rest of the video.
He says that he only wants to get the most pure experience for gaming as the developers intended it, so NO surround sound DSPS, NO EQing, NO gaming headsets, and NO amps with ~10 ohm ouput impedance. They all color the sound, so all of them be damned. Ironically, those are exactly the sort of things an audiphile snob would say, and his "only pure and uncolored sound" viewpoint is about as snobbish as you can get.
He only want's the most pure experience, which is why he's getting an ODAC...for gaming.
Enjoy your "pure" gaming experience in basic stereo, and I'll enjoy my "colored" gaming experience in surround sound. I might even EQ in some bass!
Logan seems to be a little too gullible and easily influenced by what he's told regarding audio. While I'm glad that he's no longer brainwashed by the gaming companies, he's now simply brainwashed in the other direction by an audiophile company.
"I will never use another soundcard. I just want to be happy with my audio setup." He's left "ignorant gamer land" and has entered ignorant audiophile land instead. If ignorance is bliss though, he'll be happy either way.
DJINFERNO806
500+ Head-Fier
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That Teksyndicate video was a bit dissapointing.
First off though, there were a some good things mentioned, such as:
- Avoid using the audio headers on the front of the case.
- Using an external DAC/amp is preferable to an internal one (for noise reasons).
- Try to find yourself a good pair of headphones instead of opting for an inexpensive gaming headset.
- Use the optical out from the motherboard if you have it.
Unfortunately, most of the rest of the video was a bit misleading.
Soundcards
In order to automatically disqualify most soundcards they focus on WAY over exaggerating the effects of output impedance. He actually said that with a 10 ohm ouput impedance "1/3 of the signal is going to be GONE" and "1/3 of the music is being dropped". :rolleyes: He cites output impedance like it's the determing factor in how good an amp is. I'd like to see them compare the E09K and O2 in a blind test. It should be incredibly easy to spot the E09K as it's dropping 1/3 of the music, right?
You guys said your going to be "busting as many audiophile myths as possible", but are you sure these statements on output impedance effects aren't just reinforcing or even creating new myths?
Next he says, YES soundcards have amps but why would you even need a dedicated amp when most headphones are only 32 ohms? Even the Hifiman HE500s are only 38 ohms! So these days you don't really need an amp, and your onboard audio will be just fine - even for the Hifimans. "These days most heapdhones are under 80ohms. That means they're efficient and they don't need extra power. Unless your nuts you don't need more power than that."
Hmm..are you sure your not neglecting to mention some things, like why low impedance ≠ easy to drive with headphones like Hifimans (and other Planars), Beyerdynamics, AKGs, etc?
Oh BTW, you should buy an O2 though! (please disregard everything just mentioned about NOT needing an amp).
DSPs
Throughout the video they basically skip over the WHOLE POINT of why you would use a gaming soundcard, which is for their DSP processing (such as CMSS, Dolby Headphone, SBX pro, etc). They say that your motherboard audio can do everything a gaming soundcard can do, and that using optical from a soundcard like a Xonar "is the same exact digital signal you'll get from your motherboard's optical out". Yeah - except one has has a surround DSP and the other doesn't.
Then he says "I guess the only benefit from using the soundcard is they can use the software that came with. But that's all in Windows anyways, so..." O RLY? Windows already comes with Dolby Headphone, CMSS, and SBX Pro built in? Good to know.
They say it doesn't make any sense to use surround DSPs anyways if you have a good pair of headphones. Just use regular stereo and your brain will put everything into place! :blink: Sorry, I don't believe you. A quick 5 second test shows that a good surround DSP > basic stereo for 3D positioning. The vast majority of people who've tried both would agree.
Don't believe use? Just watch this binaural recording video. If you go to your game options and set the sound to "headphones" it will "take the signal and make it so it's binaural". :blink: I wish that were true. I wish selecting "headphones" = binaural audio in games. Maybe in the future that will be possible, but for now that's NOT the case. BTW, If anything that virtual barbershop video is an endorsement for USING surround DSPS and NOT using basic stereo.
[rule]
I know they meant well with the video, but I think they created just as many myths as they busted.
The obvious irony of the whole video is that they start off saying that they're tired of the "audiophile snobbery" and that they're going to be getting rid of some of the snobbery in the audiophile world - but then they basically spout audiophile snobbery for the rest of the video.
He says that he only wants to get the most pure experience for gaming as the developers intended it, so NO surround sound DSPS, NO EQing, NO gaming headsets, and NO amps with ~10 ohm ouput impedance. They all color the sound, so all of them be damned. Ironically, those are all exactly the sort of things an audiphile snob would say, and his "only pure and uncolored sound" viewpoint is about as snobbish as you can get.
He only want's the most pure experience, which is why he's getting an ODAC...for gaming.
Enjoy your "pure" gaming experience in basic stereo, and I'll enjoy my "colored" gaming experience in surround sound. I might even EQ in some bass! :eek:
Logan seems to be a little too gullible and easily influenced by what he's told regarding audio. While I'm glad that he's no longer brainwashed by the gaming companies, he's now simply brainwashed in the other direction by the audiophile companies.
"I will never use another soundcard. I just want to be happy with my audio setup." He's left "ignorant gamer land" and has entered ignorant audiophile land instead. If ignorance is bliss though, he'll be happy either way.
If that post got any longer, I thought I'd have to call in sick to work to read it. Lol jk.
But you are correct in your points, that's how I feel as well.
However I would not call mayflower an audiophile company. They took JDS labs design and built it. Takes 30-60 minutes to do and you don't need any knowledge of audio at all. Its a diy amp. However it is a good one I agree.
Also in terms of internal noise, ya that's debatable if you can even hear it compared to moving it 2 feet away outside your case. Even if your have the amp encased in an aluminum housing.
But that's a discussion for another day.
SaLX
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Great post chico.. couldn't agree more. The Tek Syndicate guys are getting 'a little' flustered looking at their replies on the thread. Yeah lol.. "let's bust some myths and replace them with a few myths of our own".
DJINFERNO806
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We are all audiofools. Duh.
NamelessPFG
Headphoneus Supremus
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That point about creating new myths in the process of busting old ones...I couldn't have said it better myself. It happens a lot in the world of audio, and I at least want to be sure that I don't accidentally do the same. That's why I stay out of all the amp and impedance-related discussions.
Meanwhile, I'm testing out this Beyerdynamic MMX300 a bit, now that I've fixed up the headphone connector. This is looking like a promising one for anyone who wants a headset that doesn't fail at sound quality...
Meanwhile, I'm testing out this Beyerdynamic MMX300 a bit, now that I've fixed up the headphone connector. This is looking like a promising one for anyone who wants a headset that doesn't fail at sound quality...
SaLX
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Saw this review and it really got my goat up (What did that term come from?): http://www.t3.com/reviews/sennheiser-pc-360-g4me-review. Go straight to the Sound Quality section.. he bemoans the fact that they are stereo and not 3D..... groan. This type of low rent journalism adds to the myths we've been discussing. Basically though.. if you've half a brain, registered on Head-Fi or OCN, done a bit of research and asked the right questions, you'll be good. Read the above review and.. well....
Nameless.. yeah the MMX300's were my no.1 choice before I came here to do a bit of research (and ask stoopid questions etc lol). A complete dearth of any reviews or feedback put me off, however Fegefeur did a nice mini write up over on MLE's thread and they sound good indeed. Saw what you wrote about the frontal cues.. yeah hopefully you'll adjust. Really pleased to know that rear cues work well.
Nameless.. yeah the MMX300's were my no.1 choice before I came here to do a bit of research (and ask stoopid questions etc lol). A complete dearth of any reviews or feedback put me off, however Fegefeur did a nice mini write up over on MLE's thread and they sound good indeed. Saw what you wrote about the frontal cues.. yeah hopefully you'll adjust. Really pleased to know that rear cues work well.
SaLX
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Omni looks good.. not pretty looking but hopefully will do the trick.
FYI all.. Good all in one list of all soundcard reviews (not just the ones on Techpowerup) http://www.techpowerup.com/reviewdb/Sound-Cards/
FYI all.. Good all in one list of all soundcard reviews (not just the ones on Techpowerup) http://www.techpowerup.com/reviewdb/Sound-Cards/
DJINFERNO806
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Some especially cringe worthy stuff on the last page of comments at Tek Syndicate's site.
https://teksyndicate.com/videos/gaming-audio-myths-avoid-bs-save-your-audio-life?page=8
"My thought has been spoken by this gentleman. I think what Logan trying to point out is that if you want to get truly better sound quality, you should get an external DAC. You will only get minuscule improvement if you get a sound card. I also use Xonar DX. However, I cannot hear the difference of sound quality between the Xonar DX and the on-board audio (Maximus IV). Dolby Headphone feature is the only reason I use Xonar DX. (Dolby Headphone make your headphone sounds like 7.1 surround speakers)"
"could someone explain how you would get surround sound using only one of those dacs in the video??"
"Yon won't need it with a proper pair of headphones, but razor surround is free."
"Any bitrates or sampling higher than CD quality is not needed for listening. The difference between cheap DACs and more expensive ones is features, build quality, and hype. For professional applications you might need some sort of reference measurement, and higher end DACs are usually rigorously measured and tested."
https://teksyndicate.com/videos/gaming-audio-myths-avoid-bs-save-your-audio-life?page=8
"My thought has been spoken by this gentleman. I think what Logan trying to point out is that if you want to get truly better sound quality, you should get an external DAC. You will only get minuscule improvement if you get a sound card. I also use Xonar DX. However, I cannot hear the difference of sound quality between the Xonar DX and the on-board audio (Maximus IV). Dolby Headphone feature is the only reason I use Xonar DX. (Dolby Headphone make your headphone sounds like 7.1 surround speakers)"
"could someone explain how you would get surround sound using only one of those dacs in the video??"
"Yon won't need it with a proper pair of headphones, but razor surround is free."
"Any bitrates or sampling higher than CD quality is not needed for listening. The difference between cheap DACs and more expensive ones is features, build quality, and hype. For professional applications you might need some sort of reference measurement, and higher end DACs are usually rigorously measured and tested."
genclaymore
Headphoneus Supremus
We all know Teksyndicate is full of it with there lies and double standards, as well as their fan based who will believe any thing they say. While pushing his external dac amp at the same time. Trying to get people to buy the Odac, o2 or both. there really isn't any thing any one can do, site like that one will exist and it users will spread out every where bring the non-sense with them.
NamelessPFG
Headphoneus Supremus
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I remember when I used to hang around on this one computer enthusiast forum and try and explain that hardware acceleration wasn't dead in Vista - DirectSound3D was.
One of the guys there said I was talking rubbish about that and mechanical keyboards while hyping up Logitech gaming products and such. He was a moderator, too, albeit not the owner.
Arguing with him would lead nowhere fast, so I deemed that forum a lost cause and left.
One of the guys there said I was talking rubbish about that and mechanical keyboards while hyping up Logitech gaming products and such. He was a moderator, too, albeit not the owner.
Arguing with him would lead nowhere fast, so I deemed that forum a lost cause and left.
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