[MixingWizard]

Hey all,
 
I'm looking for a new DAC for my home studio, as my trusty Focusrite Pro40 is being moved to my location recording rack. I'm looking in the sub £400 budget - used is probably the way to go.
 
As far as I can tell a lot of the audiophile DACs on the market (in my budget) are just cheap circuits in shiny boxes. I spotted an Audiolab M-DAC which looks promising, but are they getting a bit long in the tooth now?
 
Ideally I'd like - XLR outputs for speakers (preferably controllable with a volume pot) and standard 1/4" jack for cans. I'd like the sound to be as neutral as possible (no valves) to match the rest of my system (Quad 520f into PMC TB2s). For cans I'll be switching between HD-25s and Shure SRH840s for now, but I'm looking at a pair of 600s in the future. 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

AudioGD NFB-11 but only single ended outputs. There's the Schiit Jotunheim with the USB DAC module, but it can only use USB for digital inputs. Spend a little bit more and you can get the AudioGD NFB-29.

 

[gregorio]

  As far as I can tell a lot of the audiophile DACs on the market (in my budget) are just cheap circuits in shiny boxes.

 
Yep, the general rule for studio use is to avoid products aimed at the audiophile market. Typically, audiophile products have no better performance than pro audio products but cost more and, it's not at all uncommon for audiophile products have both a far higher price AND poorer performance! The overwhelming, sometimes almost exclusive effort/concern of most audiophile products is marketing; appearance and the solving of non-existent "issues". While there is still marketing BS in pro audio, the products tend to be more engineering/performance driven.
 

  Ideally I'd like - XLR outputs for speakers (preferably controllable with a volume pot) and standard 1/4" jack for cans.

 
Why would you need a DAC for a studio, rather than an ADC/DAC? For <₤400, couldn't you just get yourself another Focusrite Saffire, say the Pro 14 or even the Scarlett 2i2 would do the job perfectly well for way below your budget (just make a couple of balanced jack -> XLR cables)?
 
G

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Yep, the general rule for studio use is to avoid products aimed at the audiophile market. Typically, audiophile products have no better performance than pro audio products but cost more and, it's not at all uncommon for audiophile products have both a far higher price AND poorer performance! The overwhelming, sometimes almost exclusive effort/concern of most audiophile products is marketing; appearance and the solving of non-existent "issues". While there is still marketing BS in pro audio, the products tend to be more engineering/performance driven

 

Until you use a low impedance, low sensitivity headphone on a studio interface with a high output impedance and you reduce damping factor almost to the point of how some audiophile amps deliberately increase that to boost the bass output (in some cases; in other headphones, it comes like a tin can). The only difference there is the audiophile product was designed for that on purpose; on some studio gear as well as speaker amps with headphone outputs, it's like they don't know that low impedance headphones exist.

 

Similarly, even fairly sensitive, high impedance headphones don't work as well with budget studio interfaces for one reason:  the low output power forgets to take into account how users (whether they use the ADC side of the interface or not) aren't in a noise isolated studio.
 

 
Why would you need a DAC for a studio, rather than an ADC/DAC? For <₤400, couldn't you just get yourself another Focusrite Saffire, say the Pro 14 or even the Scarlett 2i2 would do the job perfectly well for way below your budget (just make a couple of balanced jack -> XLR cables)?

 
He'll have a separate studio set-up and he wants the XLR preamp output for his power amp.
 
This amp.

 

[MixingWizard]

   
Yep, the general rule for studio use is to avoid products aimed at the audiophile market. Typically, audiophile products have no better performance than pro audio products but cost more and, it's not at all uncommon for audiophile products have both a far higher price AND poorer performance! The overwhelming, sometimes almost exclusive effort/concern of most audiophile products is marketing; appearance and the solving of non-existent "issues". While there is still marketing BS in pro audio, the products tend to be more engineering/performance driven.
 

 
Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
Quote:

 
Why would you need a DAC for a studio, rather than an ADC/DAC? For <₤400, couldn't you just get yourself another Focusrite Saffire, say the Pro 14 or even the Scarlett 2i2 would do the job perfectly well for way below your budget (just make a couple of balanced jack -> XLR cables)?
 
G

 
The Pro40 is great for the price, but the conversion on it, particularly on the outputs, isn't that great. It's a little noisy when you add it to a clean audio chain in a well treated room. I have a passively cooled PC, in a room with background noise well below 30db (as low as my meter will go) and you can really hear it, even with the output gain down on the amp. There's also a harshness to the sound - when my friend brought over his Apogee to mix some tracks the difference was genuinely noticeable. I'd buy one of those but it's mac only
 
My reasoning behind going the audiophile route was that I don't need the input conversion (I record most things using digital pres so the conversion on the pro40 is irrelevant) so I figured I could save some cash on that. But if you reckon I won't find anything better I'll just save up for a Prism Lyra or something
 

 

 

Until you use a low impedance, low sensitivity headphone on a studio interface with a high output impedance and you reduce damping factor almost to the point of how some audiophile amps deliberately increase that to boost the bass output (in some cases; in other headphones, it comes like a tin can). The only difference there is the audiophile product was designed for that on purpose; on some studio gear as well as speaker amps with headphone outputs, it's like they don't know that low impedance headphones exist.

 

Similarly, even fairly sensitive, high impedance headphones don't work as well with budget studio interfaces for one reason:  the low output power forgets to take into account how users (whether they use the ADC side of the interface or not) aren't in a noise isolated studio.
 
 
He'll have a separate studio set-up and he wants the XLR preamp output for his power amp.
 
This amp.

 
That sounds about right, although my cans aren't particularly hard to drive, even my trusty Sansa Clip does a better job in comparison. 
 
As a side note, the XLR output is mainly for convenience and future-proofing. I don't think my version of the Quad has balanced inputs anyway (it's pretty pointless with a cable less than a metre long!) A volume pot would be nice, but I do have an old passive pre knocking around which I can use instead. 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
That sounds about right, although my cans aren't particularly hard to drive, even my trusty Sansa Clip does a better job in comparison. 
 
As a side note, the XLR output is mainly for convenience and future-proofing. I don't think my version of the Quad has balanced inputs anyway (it's pretty pointless with a cable less than a metre long!) A volume pot would be nice, but I do have an old passive pre knocking around which I can use instead. 

 

The thing is though XLR balanced outputs - whether preamp or headphone - only come with more expensive amps. They tend to be together since, well, the circuit might as well be balanced throughout, and the few amps that have XLR input or output but with single ended headphone output only are still expensive anyway.

 

If your headphones aren't particularly hard to drive and your amp doesn't have XLR balanced inputs anyway then you might as well buy a single-ended unit like the NFB-11. Or if you totally have no plans of getting any low impedance, low sensitivity, or even high impedance but not high enough sensitivity headphones (or very high impedance headphones), then get a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4. You spend less and you get XLR outputs, but of course in order to make that budget work when it also comes with an ADC circuit, the headphone amp isn't the best. But if you're fine driving that headphone out of a Sansa Clip and you won't get anything else, a little lower damping factor due to impedance (but chances are its THD will still be lower than the Clip) can be acceptable, if you want to save a lot of money.

 

[gregorio]

  [1] The Pro40 is great for the price, but the conversion on it, particularly on the outputs, isn't that great. It's a little noisy when you add it to a clean audio chain in a well treated room.
[2] I have a passively cooled PC, in a room with background noise well below 30db (as low as my meter will go) and you can really hear it, even with the output gain down on the amp.
[3] But if you reckon I won't find anything better I'll just save up for a Prism Lyra or something

 
1. I didn't know that, I've never actually seen/used the Pro40.
 
2. Yep, always an issue sooner or later with some bit of kit. I fought the issue for years in my first studio and the first thing I made sure of in my current studio was to have a machine room. It's nice not even having to think about how much noise bits of kit make. Doesn't really help you though.
 
3. I've never used a Lyra but I did own a ADA-8 for quite a few years. The Prism stuff is great, pretty much the best you can buy IMHO but I'm not sure if it's as viable today as it was 15-20 years ago. By this I mean that AD/DA conversion has advanced a lot in that period, it's not necessarily better than the top units of 15 years ago, it's more along the lines of that high level of performance has become ridiculously cheap. Today, mass produced DA chips costing just $2 have a measurably linear output throughout the audible range, to within a few tenths of a dB! That's not so good for the audiophile manufacturers though, who have to invent problems and then solve them order to justify their prices. Many of these audiophile "problems" were actual limitations maybe 20 or so years ago (clocking, filters, bit depth, sample rates, etc.) but were solved long ago and again, today for peanuts. The only area which hasn't changed a great deal is the analogue sections. Having said this, I did some work in a project studio at the end of last year where they were using a 2nd gen Scarlett and I was impressed. I'd be hard pressed to blind test a difference on the DAC side against my Avid HD I/O (and even the mic-pres were surprisingly good for that price point). It was connected to active near-fields and the volume pot was fairly low though. I didn't use the headphone output, so no idea how good that is but going by the rest of the unit, I'd assume perfectly adequate.
 
Quote:

 

The thing is though XLR balanced outputs - whether preamp or headphone - only come with more expensive amps.

 
That's another audiophile myth/rip-off! Firstly, for home use there's rarely any benefit to a balanced topology in the first place and Secondly, in the audiophile world balanced is marketed as a high/higher end option and an excuse for "more expensive amps". In the pro/studio world it's been the standard option for decades, even in the cheapest studio amps.
 
I've never seen balanced headphone outs in a studio and can't think of any actual possible/logical benefit. Again though, the audiophile world is more concerned with benefits in terms of marketing opportunities, rather than in actual audible benefits!
 
G

 

[obobskivich]

I've never seen balanced headphone outs in a studio and can't think of any actual possible/logical benefit. Again though, the audiophile world is more concerned with benefits in terms of marketing opportunities, rather than in actual audible benefits!

G

"Balanced headphones" I think exist squarely for audiophilia - and its not "balanced" in the same sense as balanced wiring for studio gear. It's better thought of as "differential drive." I think some of the newer SPL amps employ it, to be compatible with planar magnetic cans though. Given that 4XLR seems to be a "standardized" connector I wouldn't be surprised if we see it pop up elsewhere too...

To the original question: I have no idea what your PC setup looks like, but what about older M-Audio gear? The 1010 is still a very respectable interface, and can do SE or balanced output, input, etc. There's also some external boxes, especially if you have FireWire. Maybe also look at E-MU, like the 1616 or 1820? Again, heavily dependant on what your PC can actually support.

Another idea would be the TEAC UD-H01 - you don't get on-unit control of the SE/balanced outputs' levels, but adding a passive pre in-between isn't asking too much (imho). Their sister company, TASCAM, has a bit more pro-oriented model, the UH-7000, which might also be worth a look too - it has inputs and such that the H01 lacks (its also bigger and probably costs more :rolleyes.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

   
That's another audiophile myth/rip-off! Firstly, for home use there's rarely any benefit to a balanced topology in the first place and Secondly, in the audiophile world balanced is marketed as a high/higher end option and an excuse for "more expensive amps". In the pro/studio world it's been the standard option for decades, even in the cheapest studio amps.
 
I've never seen balanced headphone outs in a studio and can't think of any actual possible/logical benefit. Again though, the audiophile world is more concerned with benefits in terms of marketing opportunities, rather than in actual audible benefits!

 

I never said anything about balanced drive on headphones being better. What I'm saying is that if the OP is looking for balanced preamp outputs (and maybe inputs) it will always be on more expensive headphone amps, even if the headphone amp circuit is single ended. Case in point: Violectric. Not that they're bad, but the OP can get an AudioGD or Schiit for less money.  And then might as well use a balanced cable since some are cheap if the headphones have dual entry removable cables anyway.

And as it turns out his (speaker) amp isn't even the balanced input-output version (I had no idea that Quad amp even had an SE version), thus by that point I'm questioning the need for balanced connections. I made basically the same point about them being unnecessary one paragraph down (that you didn't quote and judging by that reply, seems like you conveniently just ignored thinking I'm totally just selling him balanced for its own sake when he's the one who asked for it and I thought his speaker amp needed it).

 

 

 
Again though, the audiophile world is more concerned with benefits in terms of marketing opportunities, rather than in actual audible benefits!

 
Like how the Solo and 2i2 and K702 together sound like a tin can vs driving the K702 with a Schiit or Meier? Pretty audible actually.